Bert Hopwood

There are many books on the subject (as well as opinions) of British motorcycle manufacture and the demise thereof and most of the literature has been written by persons with an ax to grind (Mr Hopwood is but just one). It is a little bit unfair to wholly blame the unions for the woes in the Motorcycle manufacturing industry as the management/union relations were reasonably good until the Labour government started to intervene. For a reasonable insight into the Meridan co-op I can recommend "The Meriden Motorcycle Co-operative: An unconventional end to the decline of a British industry?" which can be obtained off the internet FoC.
There are numerous examples of mistakes, vested interests and incompetence within the motorcycle industry but conversely there are also many instances where major strides were made in both technology and manufacturing by far seeing owners and engineers many of whom have disappeared from view without any recognition (try to find a decent biography of Val Page for instance). It would appear to me that the decline happened as the older owners and design engineers who were brought up in and established the culture of single track vehicles, passed on and were replaced by people who treated the industry and the products as "just another job".
 
I have a vague recollection that Val Page was at Ariel when they announced a 600cc 4-cylinder version of the Leader. The engine was a four-valves per cylinder OHV flat four, and when first tested, it's peak power output was 25 horsepower! Ariel went tango-uniform not long afterwards.

The Labour government interference in the auto industry also contributed to the ultimate demise of Leyland Motors. I was born and raised in Leyland, so it was of great concern to me at the time. LM had Standard-Triumph and Rover as its car divisions, but was forced to merge with British Motor Corporation (Austin, Morris, etc). As a result, the geographicelly isolated LM plant was suddenly overrun by people from BMC who transferred because of the much lower cost of living in the North. They brought the union problems with them and dragged Leyland Motors down. It merged with the Dutch form, DAF, and the combined company was bought out by the US truck manufacturer PACCAR, who also bought Foden. PACCAR sold off the bus division to Volvo. Leyland is still one of PACCAR's house brands, but they don't seem to know what to do with it.

PACCAR was originally "Pacific Car and Foundry" and is based in Washington State. Their R&D facility is about 18 miles from where we live.
 
As I mentioned before, it isnt just one thing that sunk the ship. It was everything.
I was 19 in 1970 and was bike mad with no money. Most 19 year olds didnt have enough to buy
a 650-750. The biggest thing I noticed, despite being firmly in the brit camp, was that the
jap bike ran and ran. Brit bikes clearly handled better but if you wanted to be your transport you
worked on it all the time. Oil the chain put in the gas and the Honda was ready.
I think the reliability was a huge thing. Note that until the 750-4 most jap bikes half that size.
And dont forget that they went big for two strokes. I well remember being edged out by a
350 Yamaha as I thundered along on my Lightning.
They were often smaller but they could make good speed.

The product offered by the brits was less attractive to the buying population than the japs.
 
frankdamp said:
I have a vague recollection that Val Page was at Ariel when they announced a 600cc 4-cylinder version of the Leader. The engine was a four-valves per cylinder OHV flat four, and when first tested, it's peak power output was 25 horsepower! Ariel went tango-uniform not long afterwards.
.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that it was a 4 valve Frank.
And it was only a prototype, so Doug Hele could probably have worked his magic and fixed all the problems !?
Ariels were part of the BSA Group then ?

Notice any similarity to the later BMW K Series ??

Bert Hopwood
 
" If only someone had documented his time at Nortons before that,
with the new 650 and SS models, Daytona bikes, etc etc... "

Agree !!
 
Rohan:

I hadn't realised that bike had ever been built. The story we got was that the engine was such a disaster after all the money spent on it, that they'd just folded. I had a Leader for a couple of years. The original owner had named it "Smokey" because it ran on a 16:1 gas/oil mix.

The mufflers got clogged quite quickly, and I wrote Ariel to ask if there were any aluminum bits inside, as I was going to clean them out with caustic soda.. They wrote back and said "no aluminum inside, just the end caps and by the way, tests have shown that the engine holds up well on a 48:1 mix, 54:1 on Bardahl." It wasn't old Smokey after I changed the ratio. Apart from the windshield being a bit fragile, it was a fun bike to ride. I wouldn't mind having another one, but two strokes are frowned on over here.
 
frankdamp said:
Rohan:

I hadn't realised that bike had ever been built. The story we got was that the engine was such a disaster after all the money spent on it, that they'd just folded. I had a Leader for a couple of years. The original owner had named it "Smokey" because it ran on a 16:1 gas/oil mix.

The mufflers got clogged quite quickly, and I wrote Ariel to ask if there were any aluminum bits inside, as I was going to clean them out with caustic soda.. They wrote back and said "no aluminum inside, just the end caps and by the way, tests have shown that the engine holds up well on a 48:1 mix, 54:1 on Bardahl." It wasn't old Smokey after I changed the ratio. Apart from the windshield being a bit fragile, it was a fun bike to ride. I wouldn't mind having another one, but two strokes are frowned on over here.
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t touch a 2 stroke unless it had water cooling and electronic ignition with an oil pump, I have had too many engine seizes :!: :( :shock:
 
Modern synthetic 2 stroke oil is SOOO reliable, when did you ever hear of any of the last of the 500/250/125 GP bikes having a seize.
That stuff transformed bike racing, the last of those 250cc GP Aprilia's were getting a reliable 440 bhp/litre.
And its smokeless.....
 
Rohan said:
Modern synthetic 2 stroke oil is SOOO reliable, when did you ever hear of any of the last of the 500/250/125 GP bikes having a seize.
That stuff transformed bike racing, the last of those 250cc GP Aprilia's were getting a reliable 440 bhp/litre.
And its smokeless.....
Click to expand...

A, when did you last own and rode a 2 stroke.
B, the “last of the 500/250/125 GP bikes” ALL had water cooling & electronic ignition – even with this set up, I have been the unfortunate victim of an engine seizure, OK, so I rode a lot of miles on them, but things go wrong, just like on a four stroke.

c, re; "And its smokeless....." maybe , but some Modern synthetic 2 stroke oils are NOT smell less :!:
 
Bernhard said:
A, when did you last own and rode a 2 stroke.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, I bought this a while back, to participate in a 2 stroke rally.
At $200, plus a spare parts-bike, it seemed a good idea at the time....
Another bluesmoke in my collection is only rated at 3hp, so probably isn't going to cut it on the highway.
Although is a willing little performer in its element.

http://s8.postimg.org/g5qzz1nat/Suzi.jpg

Describe the smell of synthetic 2 stroke oil ??

We seem to have diverged somewhat.
Mr Moderator ?!
 
Continuing the divergence, I have found out a little more about the experimental 4 stroke engine for the Leader. Apparently this was a 700cc laid down 4 cylinder, very much in the mold of the K series BMW, with car type clutch and shaft drive. According to Peter Hartley in "The Ariel Story" (page 208-209) there were initially a number of teething problems which were in the process of getting sorted but Edward Turner pulled the plug on any further development.
 
Re; “Describe the smell of synthetic 2 stroke oil ??” quote.
Unless you have lost your sense of smell some 2T leave a distinctive smell behind –I KNOW when I am following in the path of one before I see it :!: Especially those mixing oil/fuel in the tank. :!:


P.S. your bike looks like a bargain :!:
 
Bob:

Thanks for the additional information on the Ariel. I hadn't realised it was a "laid-down" inline configuration. That layout was common in most 1950-1970 Leyland single-decker buses and in the British Rail diesel commuter trains - a good deal bigger, of course, around 400 cubic inches.
 
BobH said:
......... but Edward Turner pulled the plug on any further development.
Click to expand...

As someone who is not a fan of Edward Turner, why am I not surprised??
cheers
wakeup
 
I suspect that Mr. Turner was already aware of Ariel's precarious financial status. As I heard the story, the cost of developing that engine had gone way beyond expectations. When the power output was so low (probably about 30% of what was expected) I'd guess that the cost of essentially starting over would have been too much for them to handle.

From the picture, the bike looked very much like a stretched Leader. There may have been other gotchas lurking. My 250 had very poor brakes. The front one was a single leading shoe and only about 6" diameter Also, the box-beam frame structure was weakened by the cut-out for the "tank-top" locker. The real fuel tank was under the seat.

My then girlfriend, with whom I just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last August, found it a very unpleasant ride. Becuase of the frame design, there was no fixed place for the passenger footpegs. They were attached to the swing arm, moving up and down with the suspension movement.
 
frankdamp said:
When the power output was so low (probably about 30% of what was expected
Click to expand...

Thats a bold claim Frank, and VERY wide of the mark !?
That'd mean they were expecting ~80 to 90 hp out of it. !!!!
(TWICE the power of a touring Vincent !!)

Its only relatively recently that anything smaller than 1 litre has given more than 100 hp, at considerable rpms,
so to expect that out of a mildly tuned lowish compression pushrod engine in the 1960s is just not on.

As a pushrod single carb 700cc back then, 35 to 40 hp would have been quite a healthy output.
And would have more than compared with the Ariel Square4, and even with Nortons 600 dommies.

No doubt Doug Hele could have "british sports car-ed" it, and given it twin carbs and a hot grind cam.
And a glossy brochure to make it seem faster....
 
According to Peter Hartley in The Ariel Story, the prototype 700cc engine produced 27bhp but the requirement (for the bike engine) was for 38-40bhp although this was with low lift cams and before much development. BSA were hoping that the engine could double up in a generator for the forces which unfortunately never came about.
 
Reading a little deeper into the the Ariel story by Peter Hartley there was also a 500cc parallel twin developed for the Ariel Leader but like the 4 it was dispatched into the annals of history never to be seen again.
 
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