Are full face helmets really safer than open face helmets

Back in the late 90's, while stationed at an F/A-18 Hornet squadron in Japan for the first time, I had a friend who had ever been allowed to ride motorcycles growing up. I had a second hand Honda NX 650 (enduro style bike) at the time. My friend Bruce was hell bent on getting a bike, and I wanted to help, so I gave him a few tips and then turned him loose in a flat grass field (not so many here now ) anyway he got the basics down quick, I had him locking the back wheel and fish tailing, then doing power slides and so on and so forth so he could get the feel of the bike. He progressed and later got his license. He found a nice Kawasaki KLX 400 I think for a good price. Anyway he bought a top of the line Arai full face that was almost as much as the bike. About 4 months later a little old lady pulled right out in front of him. He hit her car and went up and over. He made it through okay but that pretty Arai with all the graphics etc... Was very banged up. I was very glad (as was he) that he had that full face helmet.
 
The problem with that statement is that it goes beyond the helmet discussion.

Modern top riders all have extremely high end one piece suits, humps on their back to prevent whiplash and airbags built into their suits.

THAT is why there are so few neck injuries.

And with the odd exception... I don't see many people riding thus equipped on the road. Least of all, anyone on vintage Norton's...!

Donning a Moto GP style helmet... with an old leather jacket and some Levis, ain't gonna give quite the same overall effect.


Funny you should mention that. I've been looking at the vests with built-in airbags, and I think I'm going to buy one. At my age (76) the bones are pretty brittle, and any crash is likely to break some of them. And they take a long time to heal now. Mostly I'm thinking of the extra protection when landspeed racing at El Mirage or Bonneville, but if it's comfortable enough, I might also try wearing it over my jacket for riding in the local twisties. Or not. LIke everyone else, I do make some trade-offs between comfort and safety. Maybe I could get a Norton logo silk-screened onto the vest:D

I confess to being a bit biased on the subject of safety gear. Back in my road racing days I took several ambulance rides from the track to the local hospital with seriously broken bones, destroyed two brand new (expensive) helmets in their first race use, went through three sets of leathers (still using the fourth), two of which had to be cut off of me in the ER, and wore out the palms of several sets of racing gloves. I'm doing my best to avoid going through any of that again, while continuing to enjoy riding.

Still, it's really a personal choice, isn't it. Life is full of risky but rewarding activities. I might poke fun at the guys I regularly see on cruisers with funky shorty helmets, no gloves, no sleeves, some even with no eye protection, or the guys on sport bikes with tennis shoes, t-shirts, and shorts, but it's their decision to make, not mine.

So sayeth the old philosopher,

Ken
 
Definately this is my helmet when i was face planted at Mallory park at 70mph plus , i hate to think what my face would be like if i had been in an open helmet.
Are full face helmets really safer than open face helmets
 
Ken, Richard AKA BLIGHTYBRIT wears an air vest, he might be able to share his thoughts if you PM him.
 
Well the best way is to stay upright but most accidents are beyond our control, racing they have so much safety gear they have to wear and with the most expensive gear on the market, you have to be a rich man to afford all that for riding on the road, but not all expensive helmet s that racers use will save them, who was that racer a few years ago who lost his head completely and the race was cancled because of it and of course the speeds they do, we don't do those speeds on the road, well some fools do who put other peoples lives at risk, but these days we have everything against us, speed inforcement devices, speed cameras, mobil patrols and most accidents on the road are slow speed or accidents in suburban areas, mostly cars pulling out in front of us or laying the bike down to avoid being run over, but I started this thread to not judge what helmets we all perfer or think is safer etc etc but in knowing the real issues of what major damage can be caused by helmets whether open or full face, mostly neck and spine injuries caused by helmets.
In 2013 when I went to pick up my brand new Thriumph Thruxton I walked in the shop with my open face helmet, my old Marlon Branbo leather look alike jacket, jeans and work boots and the manager looked at me and said to the other salesman "look at this old school" I might be old school but I am also a safe rider in what I do, I can't afford to spend $600+ on a helmet every 5 year or so, my first leather jacket lasted over 30 years before it rotted away in places, it had a few worn parts on it from going down, my new jacket is only 15 years old and still looks new, now retired I a, not riding everyday like I was when working now down to 3 or 4 days a week or longer when traveling and never been without a bike, I ride more than I drive the car, my life is my motorcycles and at 60 years next month I have been very lucky comparded to a lot of my mates and what they been through from accidents but they are still riding and none have had head injuries mostly broken bones legs and arms.
But the helmets thing has been on my mind since my best mate got killed all them years ago and not a mark on him just a broken neck from the full face helmet and I think of him every time I ride past where it got him as its just down the road from my place.

Ashley
 
"But the helmets thing has been on my mind since my best mate got killed all them years ago and not a mark on him just a broken neck from the full face helmet"
What you don't know here is a lot -----
 
been watching MotoGP on TV for 9 years...seen Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa, Marquez..etc etc fly through the air and land on head and face and walk away...I wear Rossi replica AGV full face
 
been watching MotoGP on TV for 9 years...seen Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa, Marquez..etc etc fly through the air and land on head and face and walk away...I wear Rossi replica AGV full face

Yes but I bet you they also been taught what to do when they come off, they also wear neck braces and collar protections and the kevlar protetor built into all their safety gear and look at some of the slides they do coming off at the speeds they do and they hop up brushing the themselfs off or trying to get back on their bikes, so comparing our gear to theirs and remember they don't pay for their own gear, its all part of their deals and sponsers, we don't have that priblage and they get replace regularly, and their gear might cost as much as our bikes and I say your helmet would not be the same as what Rossi wears, it might look like it but be way different I am sure.

Ashley
 
Seriously, what was their data source and how accurate is it (rhetorical question)?
I believe it was here
Are full face helmets really safer than open face helmets



The diagrams above show the impact areas on crash-involved motorcycle helmets. (Source: Dietmar Otte, Hannover Medical University, Dept. of Traffic Accident Research, Germany.) Note that 35% of all crashes showed major impact on the chin-bar area. This means that if you ride with an open-face helmet, you are accepting only 65% of the protection that could be available to your head.

http://bmwdean.com/swisher.htm
 
I believe it was here
Are full face helmets really safer than open face helmets



The diagrams above show the impact areas on crash-involved motorcycle helmets. (Source: Dietmar Otte, Hannover Medical University, Dept. of Traffic Accident Research, Germany.) Note that 35% of all crashes showed major impact on the chin-bar area. This means that if you ride with an open-face helmet, you are accepting only 65% of the protection that could be available to your head.

http://bmwdean.com/swisher.htm

All good but its still don't tell anything about neck and spine injuries caused by the way helmets are designed, that is what I am interested in, I think having damage to my chin and servive to a broken neck and not servive or be in a wheel chair for the rest of my life, I think I will put this in the to hard basket as everyone is only thinking of chin and face damage by what helmet you wear, its not what I want to know.

Ashley
 
PURPOSE:
Motorcycle crash helmets do not totally prevent head and facial trauma. The aim of this study was to investigate if protection offered by helmets differs according to helmet type.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
In this retrospective cohort study, outpatient records of motorcyclists were analyzed for the Facial Injury Severity Scale (FISS), traumatic brain injury (TBI), facial fractures, and helmet use. Statistical analysis was conducted using the Fisher and Bonferroni tests, bivariate regression analysis, and 1-way analysis of variance.

RESULTS:
There were 253 motorcyclists who sustained craniomaxillofacial injuries and were referred for outpatient treatment (men, 88.9%; mean age, 29.64 ± 11.6 yr); 60.1% had up to 9 years of formal education; 156 patients reported not using crash helmets, 51 were using open-face helmets, and 46 were using full-face helmets. The mean FISS score was significantly higher for unhelmeted riders compared with full-face helmet riders (P = .047), with no difference between unhelmeted riders and open-face helmet users (P = 1.00).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24326016

The last sentence... "with no difference between unhelmeted riders and open-face helmet users [for craniomaxillofacial trauma]"
 
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All good but its still don't tell anything about neck and spine injuries caused by the way helmets are designed, that is what I am interested in, I think having damage to my chin and servive to a broken neck and not servive or be in a wheel chair for the rest of my life, I think I will put this in the to hard basket as everyone is only thinking of chin and face damage by what helmet you wear, its not what I want to know.

Ashley

According to this, no difference between full face and open face for cervical spine injury (CSI):

A total of 5225 patients of motorcycle crashes between 2000 and 2009 were extracted from the Head Injury Registry in Taiwan.

Wearing full-coverage and partial-coverage helmets significantly reduced the risk of CSI among HI patients following motorcycle crashes. This effect may be due to the smooth surface and hard padding materials of helmet.

In order to directly compare the effect on CSI between full-coverage helmet and partial-coverage helmet, we repeated the comparison by choosing the patients with partial-coverage helmet as reference, and the results were shown as follows: OR = 0.55 (95% CI = 0.33–0.93) and 2.88 (1.78–4.67) for full-coverage helmet and nonhelmet patients, respectively. These results were consistent with the original results. We also reported no issue of collinearity in both Models 1 and 2 because the variance inflation factors among all covariates were less than 2.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/487985/
 
And common sense prevails... both full and open face helmets prevent CSI. But an open face helmet is just like no helmet for preventing facial injuries.
 
Thanks Gortnipper just what I wanted to know, here in Australia its compustry to wear helmets and have standards they have to comform to and now they put a law in they need to be replaced every 5 years, which might be a bit unfair if the helmet hasn't been in a accident or hardly gets used in that time, my wife hardly goes out on the bike and how long they been sitting in the shop before they sell, makes it very expensive if like myself have a few helmets for different purposes.

Ashley
 
Once again guys I must start this by saying I’m NOT in any way anti full face, I’ve been wearing one for 34 years after all!

But, the helmet debate is deeper than this. If anyone is really serious about their motorcycle PPE the chances are there are many other areas of your kit that are at least as important as helmet choice that are currently wrong / poor / inadequate.

And perhaps I’m just a cynical git. But...

Whilst 253 would certainly be considered ‘statistically sigificant’ it’s still a relatively low number, and is easily susceptible to ‘sampling error’ meaning, for example, if all samples are from one place, perhaps there is a unique issue there that is not relevant esleswhere. I would therefore suggest it would have been much better to have had a bigger study.

Also, am I reading correctly that it was only out patience that we’re studied? If so, why? I assume I’m wrong about this actually, but if it was only out patience, they are not going to get many severe neck injuries in the out patient ward and this would be a huge ‘sampling error’ mistake.

The 5225 study in Thailand is, of course, a much bigger and more meaningful study. But even this is at fault of ‘sampling error’ FOR OUR PURPOSES. Meaning: the vast majority of motorcycles in Thailand are small, low powered machines. The vast number of incidents would therefore have been very different to the incidents more appropriate to us, i.e. heavy, fast motorcycles crashed at high speed. The type of accidents, and the trauma to the body through whiplash etc would therefore have been very different.

As an aside, part of my own ‘bias’ here comes from a ‘lesson’ I had in motorcycle protection from the guy who used to be “Crowtree Leathers” in England. He explained that leathers, or armour, that was stiff would simply move the energy of a crash to the extremities of the body, this means limbs flailing around and causing injuries to ankles and wrist, but worse, it also means the neck. He also went on to say that wearing heavy boots, gloves and helmets accentuates this greatly. Therefore, we can EASILY do the wrong thing when buying our motorcycle PPE by buying big, stiff, heavy, durable gear because it SEEMS obviously better. The suits racers use today are super flexible and lightweight, boots have carbon fibre inserts, helmets are carbon fibre, protection is super high tech including airbag technology, etc. All VERY different to what most of us use on the road. Nevertheless, even a stiff jacket has to be better than no jacket, but beyond this basic fact, the topic becomes a lot deeper. Just like with helmets.

SO.... helmets are part of a holistic PPE package. Once we’ve passed obvious conclusions that ANY helmet is better than none, we quickly get into the holistic topic.

And, at the end of the day, our personal choice is driven by our own “risk compensation factor” meaning each of us has to decide the level of risk we’re happy with. There is NO SUCH thing as 100% safe anything, least of all motorcycles. We all CHOOSE TO ACCEPT DEATH OR INJURY as a potential consequence every time we ride; kinda strange when you think about it!

Finally, within ‘risk compensation’ lies yet another twist in that, the better our PPE the safer we feel, and the safer we feel, the greater the level of risk we will subconsciously accept. Therefore... the safer your kit, the more dangerous your riding...!!

Blimey, I’ve made myself scared to ride now. Think I’ll go for a walk instead, but wait, what about pedestrian accident rates...

Ramble over.
 
I full agree with Fast Eddie we all take risk as soon as we jump on our bikes, we choose the safety gear we want whether they are safe or not and most safety gear sold at the shops we have no idea how safe they really are, manufactures and marketing can claim anything and we would never really know, statistics can be fiddled or not done right from the beginning.
Maybe openning a can of worms with this thread just like the oil debate but its good to hear others thoughts on this matter as it affect everyone who rides, but it won't change my ways of riding or what gear I decide to wear on the day, I love my open face helmet and I know the risks I take wearing it, its my choose, but wearing my fliptop full face when traveling, wet weather or cold days wearing what ever for the condictions.
I been riding long enough now and will keep riding with the gear I feel comfortable with, if we all worried about what may happen while out on he bike there be no bikes on the road.

Ashley
 
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