Anti wet sump Idea

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baz

baz

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Ok I'm full of ideas not many make it to fruition
In light of Jim's excellent sump plug reed valve breather that allows the engine to breath and the excess sump oil to be returned to the oil tank on start up
Is there any reason why you couldn't fit an elbow to your existing sump plug then plumb it into the oil tank like Jim's but with an inline tap?
IE you open the tap if the bike has been laid up for sometime then close it once the excess oil is evacuated from the crankcase
No worries about an oil feed tap being left turned off etc
Worse case scenario would be the pipe falling off the sump plug I'd guess?
Or would it have to have a one way valve to evacuate the sump?
It should at least stop the crank seal on the primary side being pushed out?
As I said I have loads of ideas!!!!
 
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If this worked in principle, why would you need the tap?

Presumeably to stop diverting oil straight to the tank without forcing it through the filter in the return line?

Really it seems very much like the '72 breather block perhaps without the separator foam.So I assume you would need some other form of breather.

And what would it actually do for the crankcase breathing? You certainly won't be creating negative pressure without a reed valve.
 
SteveA said:
If this worked in principle, why would you need the tap?

Presumeably to stop diverting oil straight to the tank without forcing it through the filter in the return line?

Really it seems very much like the '72 breather block perhaps without the separator foam.So I assume you would need some other form of breather.

And what would it actually do for the crankcase breathing? You certainly won't be creating negative pressure without a reed valve.
Click to expand...
It would only be used on start up if the bike had been standing/wet sumped , not for breathing
It's an alternative idea to the oil feed taps that come in many guises and can kill an engine
 
I saw a mag article on a Matchless, the owner had a car windscreen washer pump plumbed into the sump plate, before he started the bike he operated the pump to clear the sump and then turned the pump off and started the bike. He only used it on cold oil so the rubber pump internals did not suffer.
 
I've not read of a single instance on this site or any other old bike site where an oil feed tap with interlock has caused any problem.
On the other hand, the spring loaded automatic valves have done lots of damage. They are a totally different thing. Manual taps without interlock are also a bad idea. Lots of damage there. Old bikes, old forgetful owners and a tap that must be remembered. Bad idea.

But the manual taps with interlock have proven to be an ok solution. Some seem to confuse these taps with the other types that have wrecked engines.

Ive used one without worry for years now, wouldn't hesitate to fit another if needed.
The bike that has the tap is as dry under as the two new Triumphs it sits beside.
Not a spec of oil on the floor after a full winter of storage.
In the spring, turn the tap on and go, no smokey exhaust until sump is cleared etc.
After living with it for five years now, I cannot see a single problem or drawback to it.
Im not saying this is the only way to go.
It is one method of dealing with the oil & gravity issue and it is completely effective.


Glen
 
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worntorn said:
I've not read of a single instance on this site or any other old bike site where an oil feed tap with interlock has caused any problem.
On the other hand, the spring loaded automatic valves have done lots of damage. They are a totally different thing. Manual taps without interlock are also a bad idea. Lots of damage there. Old bikes, old forgetful owners and a tap that must be remembered. Bad idea.

But the manual taps with interlock have proven to be an ok solution. Some seem to confuse these taps with the other types that have wrecked engines.

Ive used one without worry for years now, wouldn't hesitate to fit another if needed.
The bike that has the tap is as dry under as the two new Triumphs it sits beside.
Not a spec of oil on the floor after a full winter of storage.
In the spring, turn the tap on and go, no smokey exhaust until sump is cleared etc.
After living with it for five years now, I cannot see a single problem or drawback to it.
Im not saying this is the only way to go.
It is one method of dealing with the oil & gravity issue and it is completely effective. Glen
Click to expand...

Re; "On the other hand, the spring loaded automatic valves have done lots of damage."
You have not been on ALL the websites so far –Velocette from the 1950s have been fitting a large 3/8 inch dia spring loaded ball on the feed side to the oil pump. Hundreds have been made and in use by their owners, no problems at all. The only drawback is owners sometimes FORGET to prime the bottom part pf the oil pipe when it has been stripped, or drained of oil for any reason- I had a Venom for 4 years I had no problem on that front in 50, 000miles.
 
As I said it's an Idea
I think it could be more failsafe than the interlock type valve on the feed and the velocette type
 
I have a new pump on my bike and it still sumps. Over the winter I simply pull the drain plug in the bottom of the case and empty all the oil.
During the riding season I revel in the fact that the cam is getting splashed straight away. The Jim reed valve removes the excess quickly.
Yes Im aware that the splash probably doesn't do much in terms of cam life but I live in hope.
 
Bernhard said:
Re; "On the other hand, the spring loaded automatic valves have done lots of damage."
You have not been on ALL the websites so far –Velocette from the 1950s have been fitting a large 3/8 inch dia spring loaded ball on the feed side to the oil pump. Hundreds have been made and in use by their owners, no problems at all. The only drawback is owners sometimes FORGET to prime the bottom part pf the oil pipe when it has been stripped, or drained of oil for any reason- I had a Venom for 4 years I had no problem on that front in 50, 000miles.
Click to expand...
Yep got the Velo type on mine, no probs.
 
worntorn said:
I'm referring to the spring loaded valves on the suction side. These are readily available in the aftermarket and often fitted to wetsumpers. I'm surprised they are still on the market after all of the ruined engines.

The ball and spring on the pressure side was done by other manufacturers , not just Velo. The A7 and A10 BSA have a ball and spring on the pressure side to prevent or slow wet sumping. The Mk3 Commando has a similar arrangement but done with plunger and spring. The AMR mod for pre MK3 Norton twins adds a ball and spring on the pressure side.
These are all potentially helpful, not totally effective, but do tend to slow the flow some. I've not heard of engine damage caused by these pressure side stops.



Glen
Click to expand...
I had always thought the velocette anti wet sump valve was fitted to the oil tank on the outlet?
And the aftermarket ones we see are a copy of that?
Cheers
 
You are correct, my mistake.
I'll remove that post as it doesn't make much sense.

There is no question that the aftermarket automatic valves have destroyed a lot of engines. It would be good to know what Velo did differently.


Glen
 
baz said:
I had always thought the velocette anti wet sump valve was fitted to the oil tank on the outlet?
And the aftermarket ones we see are a copy of that?
Cheers
Click to expand...
You are correct. Wornton has misunderstood the Velo version of anti gravity oil control.
 
The oil pump on a Velo motor is a gear pump which is an interference fit in the TS crankcase. I owned a Velocette Venom clubman for a while. It was fitted with the standard anti drain valve & to the best of my knowledge never failed to operate. If it had failed to operate however, I might never had noticed, providing it eventually opened. The one big difference between a Norton twin & a Velo single is the big end on the later is a roller bearing & not a plain bearing. A roller type would tolerate running without oil for much longer than a plain type.

Martyn.
 
Years ago before the internet and information like this I had a manual valve fitted to my mk2a
I'll never forget to turn that on I thought
I turn the petrol tap on so I can turn am oil tap on right!!
Aaaaand you've guessed it one morning late for for work I forgot
I got approximately 7 miles before I felt a slight dip in power and a bit of a rattle
I immediately turned the oil tap on ,pulled to the side of the road and let it idle for a bit then sped off to work no damage done
I must have just caught it as the film of oil was dissapeering from the shells and cylinder walls?
I really don't know but once the oil was back on it was fine
 
With just an open hose & tap on the sump to the oil tank, I'd expect very little sump oil clearance as there is both pressure and suction happening in the sump with each crank revolution. I'd suspect you'd just get oil slopping back and forth in the pipe, not being forced up/out as with a check valve in the line...
 
Why not just plumb in a simple tap that could be easily turned on to drain the sump? Maybe even tap one of the cases if there ends up being a clearance issue on the bottom?

Best.
 
Tornado said:
With just an open hose & tap on the sump to the oil tank, I'd expect very little sump oil clearance as there is both pressure and suction happening in the sump with each crank revolution. I'd suspect you'd just get oil slopping back and forth in the pipe, not being forced up/out as with a check valve in the line...
Click to expand...
That's the beauty of Jim's sump valve I guess
 
Can we back the car up a little.
If the bike is sitting and the connecting rods are at TDC, how is the oil getting to the sump route wise.
Is it via the oil pump feed,return or something else.
 
It's great putting an Idea out and getting opinions
I can't kick my bike over with my right leg any more
I can just about kick it with my left and that's with an Rgm t160 kickstart
That's why I now have the Alton starter
I can't kneel to remove a sump plug so I have to put the bike on the ramp I have an inline Rgm anti wet sump valve fitted , been on there around 20 year's but with reports of them going tits up I'm going to remove it as I now have a MK3 timing cover
I actually think my 750 is morphing into a MK3 as it now has an electric start ,disc rear wheel,cotter pin swing arm pivot MK3 timing cover etc
I suppose the easiest cure is to ride the bike at least once a week
And if it was the only bike I had that would definitely happen
Cheers
 
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