Anti-wet sump device

Status
Not open for further replies.
laurentdom

laurentdom

Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
247
Country flag
Hi All,

This post is just to share my experience with an anti-wet sump tap (coupled with the ignition circuit), so that you don't make the same mistake as what I did.

I first installed it when my Dominator was still a 88 and then 99 model (500 then 600 cc / 3 start oil pump).

Later on, I switched to a 750 Commando engine / 6 start oil pump, but without cheking that the IN and OUT pipes of the anti-wet sump tap were large enough (i.e. same diameter as the oil tank pipes) to cope with the new oil flow requirements. They were not (about 1/2 the capacity of the oil tank pipes).

Result: a completely worn out RH crankshaft journal due to unsufficient oiling.

Silly isn't it?

So beware of the oil flow capacity of any anti-wet sump device (in addition to the other critical points and pros & cons widely discussed here).

P.S.: to me the good solution is either to live with wet sumping or (what I did) to use Comnoz's reed breather.

Hope this helps,

Laurent
 
Laurent, was this a valve purchased as a complete unit from a retailer, or a home brewed item?
If it was sold as a dedicated antisump valve, could you tell us who supplied it or maybe put up a photo of the unit?


Glen
 
The best mod for wet sumping is the check ball and timing case mod at the pump OUTPUT, along with "O" rings in the pump. ANYTHING in the pump input is only inviting trouble, like you experienced. If you live in the U.S., AMR does a great job at a very reasonable price.

No need to tell me about all the Gyro Gearloose claptrap I've seen posted here.
 
Hi Glen and All,

That device is not a valve, it's a tap used in plumbing as far as I know, connected between the feed pipes of the oil tank and the pump.

To me, the concept is OK as there is no risk of the valve being stuck closed or starting the engine with the tap closed, or issues like that. I got it from a guy in the UK, hand made / well made and for a fair price. It created no problem when used with my 500 and 600 engines because (I guess) the oil flow trough the tap was enough to feed the pump with enough oil.

It's my own mistake not having thought that with a 6 start pump, it wouldn't be the case!

L.
 
.It's my own mistake not having thought that with a 6 start pump, it wouldn't be the case!
Click to expand...

Therein lies the problem with anything between the oil tank and the pump. It requires an infallible human mind.
 
Had a spring/ ball check valve for a long time. Ended up taking it out on advice of many Forum members. It was fitted on the inlet hose to engine. Did notice a little more oil pressure on the gauge. Back to wet sumping though. Feel a little more comfortable now.
 

Attachments

  • Anti-wet sump device
    IMG_1689.webp
    60.1 KB · Views: 1,526
travelerjerry said:
Had a spring/ ball check valve for a long time. Ended up taking it out on advice of many Forum members. It was fitted on the inlet hose to engine. Did notice a little more oil pressure on the gauge. Back to wet sumping though. Feel a little more comfortable now.
Click to expand...

Bingo! You did right to remove that inline check valve as I mentioned sometime ago on this forum:
"Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge)."
 
I would love to know a good answer for this problem. Surely by now somebody has designed a decent oil pump for a Commando ? I still have a bolt stuffed up my feed pipe and fastened with a clip. I live with the danger of forgetting to re-attach the pipe before starting the motor and I'm getting older and sillier. Perhaps there is a way of making a conversion to use a Triumph type oil pump ?
 
nortonspeed said:
travelerjerry said:
Had a spring/ ball check valve for a long time. Ended up taking it out on advice of many Forum members. It was fitted on the inlet hose to engine. Did notice a little more oil pressure on the gauge. Back to wet sumping though. Feel a little more comfortable now.
Click to expand...

Bingo! You did right to remove that inline check valve as I mentioned sometime ago on this forum:
"Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge)."
Click to expand...

Plus 1 on the HNW valve and an oil pressure gauge. It also solved a smoking right cylinder! At some point will have to change the inlet guide but I can now do a couple of my favourite things for a bit longer, ride and procrastinate.
 
I bought an Old Britts valve to try to help a very worn oil pump stop wet sumping a full oil tank overnight and it worked, but I didn't end up installing it permanently because BEFORE installing it, I tried to blow, then suck air thru it and ALMOST couldn't. Too much spring pressure will most likely cause too much restriction for the pump to have to draw through, potentially starving the crank.

The bike has good oil pressure, so oil pump is not "throw away", just needs to be dealt with...
 
I installed a ball valve in my oil feed line. Only forgot to turn it on once "ONCE" destroyed the engine.
JUG
 
Hi Laurent,

Sorry to hear of your engine woes sir!

But something has been niggling at my thoughts since I read your post...

I fully accept that the valve you had was effectively acting as a reducer in the feed line. And of course, I accept that this is not good and is best remedied.

However, unless the hole was tiny, I confess that I am struggling to visualise that it could be the root cause of your worn crank.

We see many café racers and customs using all sorts of 'none standard' plumbing with small diameter fittings etc. and although they're not good, they still seem to function 'enough'.

Plus, the actual holes in the pump, crank case and crankshaft are obviously small anyway.

I would imagine that an otherwise healthy good pump and oil system would still draw sufficient oil, even through a restriction as you describe.

If I were in your shoes, I would also be looking out for other possible root causes to your problem (worn pump, poor oil choice, problems with the crank end oil seal, swarf in the oil, blast media in the oil, etc, etc).

Just my '2 Euro cents' ...!
 
Thanks for your input Nigel.

You're right saying that the role of that tap should be questioned, but I've also carefully checked and re-checked any other cause that you mention and found nothing explaining the problem.

The oil is Motul fully synthetic, the oil pump is OK, same for gaskets & oil seals, no debris in the oil circuit, oil return to the tank was OK etc.

At the moment, that oil restriction is the only reason I've found.

L.
 
I ask the people at SRM who make ultra high quality oil pumps for BSA and I think Triumph's too why they have not made pumps for Nortons and they said "not enough demand"!!! I would think and have said here before that we should all ask them to make one...
 
nortonspeed said:
the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge)."
Click to expand...

I've looked at the Holland Works oil-tank valve, and believe it's actually a Mick Hemmings product... correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that I'm actually interested in any valve, I've had my pump reconditioned and the AMR mod done, bike still sumps. But with comstock's breather installed, I'm content to live with the sumping issue.

Fast Eddie said:
Hi Laurent,

Sorry to hear of your engine woes sir!

But something has been niggling at my thoughts since I read your post...

I fully accept that the valve you had was effectively acting as a reducer in the feed line. And of course, I accept that this is not good and is best remedied.

However, unless the hole was tiny, I confess that I am struggling to visualise that it could be the root cause of your worn crank.

We see many café racers and customs using all sorts of 'none standard' plumbing with small diameter fittings etc. and although they're not good, they still seem to function 'enough'.

Plus, the actual holes in the pump, crank case and crankshaft are obviously small anyway.

I would imagine that an otherwise healthy good pump and oil system would still draw sufficient oil, even through a restriction as you describe.

If I were in your shoes, I would also be looking out for other possible root causes to your problem (worn pump, poor oil choice, problems with the crank end oil seal, swarf in the oil, blast media in the oil, etc, etc).

Just my '2 Euro cents' ...!
Click to expand...

Curious, wouldn't the strategic placement of smaller ID oil lines actually help increase oil pressure? I believe, when plumbing houses for example, smaller diameter pipes are gradually employed farther out from the primary water source for this very reason.
 
i have always had an inline anti drain valve fitted never had a problem with it in 20 years or so , although i always prime it when i change the oil, and i always get nervous when i read of other peoples ones failing
 
acadian said:
Curious, wouldn't the strategic placement of smaller ID oil lines actually help increase oil pressure? I believe, when plumbing houses for example, smaller diameter pipes are gradually employed farther out from the primary water source for this very reason.
Click to expand...

The example you quote is actually more to maintain adequate flow than pressure. But more importantly it is to maintain adequate flow in the extremities AFTER the pump.

Laurent's issue is a restrictor on the FEED to the pump. Thereby reducing flow, and then subsequently pressure, to the engine.

Well, that's the hypothesis at least!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
The Magneto Guys Anti-Wet Sumping Valve
2
Replies
36
Views
1,262
robs ss
robs ss
vidar hjelm johansen
  • Locked
Anti wet sump valve
2 3 4 5 6 7
Replies
121
Views
10,103
Time Warp
Time Warp
Dukepaul
  • Locked
Feked anti-wet sump valve and switch
2 3
Replies
46
Views
6,957
marinatlas
marinatlas
baz
  • Locked
Anti wet sump Idea
2 3
Replies
46
Views
5,121
Bernhard
B
gripper
  • Locked
Anti wet sump valve sieze (2015)
2 3 4 5 6 7
Replies
122
Views
18,009
guest76
G
Back
Top