Anti-Sump Failure

Gday Dave, this valve you mention with ignition cut out, just wondering what its looks are like, not too agricultural I expect. The fuel valve Ive mentioned before from Pingel, is a state of the art aircraft grade alloy with ignition cut out, very neat and tidy.I contacted Pingel and they said it would work fine for oil in motorcycles as the flow rate is definately high enough. One big drawback with it is that its some $300 US! OUCH!
FOXY

"These valves dont come apart so I am not sure it was a Miles model you used. Maybe an earlier version, like the Australian one that was an all metal, 2 piece, unit. From Miles I have only seen the latest version, which is this small one with a sight glass."

Matt / Colorado Norton Works


Hey Matt,

It was in fact the design with the site glass and did come apart. Put it back together with the ball /spring removed and my oil pressure was fine, albeit the engine remained loud. So unless there a multiple manufacturers out there......

Enjoyed seeing the shop last summer while out there for the rally.

Hope this works, it's my first attempt at sending photo's with photobucket!
Dave.

850cmndo said:

"These valves dont come apart so I am not sure it was a Miles model you used. Maybe an earlier version, like the Australian one that was an all metal, 2 piece, unit. From Miles I have only seen the latest version, which is this small one with a sight glass."

Matt / Colorado Norton Works


Hey Matt,

It was in fact the design with the site glass and did come apart. Put it back together with the ball /spring removed and my oil pressure was fine, albeit the engine remained loud. So unless there a multiple manufacturers out there......

Enjoyed seeing the shop last summer while out there for the rally.

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So was it threaded then or how did it come apart when you checked it out ? I have not seen a threaded version myself and have not asked Al Miles if this is how he used to make them. I dont think there is another manufacturer that uses a sight glass.

We had a great time during the rally week as well. Didnt think we could fit that many people into the shop at one time. I think the guys that put the rally on did a great job and short of the 'hail storm' (and this sure made for some good campfire stories) I dont think it could be much better.

Matt / CNW

Ya know, I was so freaked out by the whole situation I don't recall. A fellow rider actually looked it over and took it apart and it has since been tossed following all the engine work. I suspect it screwed together. Either way, it wasn't a matter of it coming apart but the fact that it didn't remain open. Again, after removing the spring and ball my pressure gauge showed good pressure so I'm not suspecting the pump. The pump has since been gone through and lapped. The gentleman who did my work was aware of the situation and didn't mention anything that would lead me to think the pump had failed. I'm again running the same pump and haven't had any issues.

daveparry said:

Hope this works, it's my first attempt at sending photo's with photobucket!
Dave.

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Looks good. But I still prefer the AMR mod for $70. Looks like the setup you have cost at least that.

Matt (CNW),

I'm certain CNW is aware of the AMR mod. Why do you not offer it? IMO, the valve you sell is probably fine of itself, but the functionality is a bit dodgy. Can you give us your reasoning?

Keep up the good work. I, for one, am grateful CNW exists.

We used the modification that AMR offers for many years. The first 30 bikes or so have it installed in the timing cover. These were done by another guy, I cant think of his name, that later gave the rights to AMR so they could offer the modification.

I found the results very inconsistent with some bikes not sumping a bit and other draining down to the crank in a very short time. This was frustrating since I didnt know until the customers started reporting back to me after they took delivery of the machines. I know that some people dont mind the wetsumping but I dont want to tell my customers that they have to drain the oil out of the crank and pour it back into the oil tank before going on a ride.

I do think that the functionality of the Al Miles valve is ok. It has provent itself (for me) on the machines we build. No loss of oil pressure if compared to an open line and I have never seen one not open.

The assembly itself may need to be improved as the feedback from this thread alone tells me that some have had problems with them coming apart. This is not acceptable and I am talking to Al Miles further about what he is willing to do to change the way that this valve is built.

Matt / CNW

My brother had the AMR mod to no avail. While it seems that a lot of people have been please with it, it doesn't appear to be 100% successful.

I just when through(lapped in) 5 Norton oil pumps in three days. If you need motivation for oil filter fitment this is a good way to get it. If you need to intimately understand that these were production machines with plenty of slack in the tolerances than this is a good activity for you. The wider sump side gear pressed on the driving shaft takes the main hit. When a nice hunk goes through the pocket in the body for that gear can become damaged. The fit of each gear to there pocket is all over the place. There are several bodies that are machined so badly on the back you can see the oil blow out lines. Gears are held to a tolerance at their pressure angles not at their O.D.’s now the fit of the O.D. to the pump body cavity (pocket) does come into play when using a gear to drive oil. Now if the fit in production got too tight the pumps would not go together and if they got a little loose they would wet sump and make less pressure. The mystery of wet sumping goes away when you have seen as many as I have. The mystery of how the engine lived at all continues.
If you are an owner and have not checked the heart of your machine than you might want to learn how. A maple block service tool and a lapping table and about four hours of time can get most of the gross errors gone but you have to be ready for the fact that you may have a bad one and the best thing is to start anew. I would never even consider running a bike without at least looking at the pump inside. I have a lot of pictures of how to and have other details I can provide if needed. There are some fragile parts the spigot and the key come to mind. Some motor control for reversing figure 8’s, the use of precision instruments to measure the parts and motivation to master the skills needed to get the job done.
Good common sense. Red line assembly lube, solvent based cleaners a large fresh wire wheel, a roll of clean paper towels, oil pressure gauge to check your work. Compressed air is a must, and a tolerance for working with solvents blown into the air. If it was easy anyone could do it.

norbsa48503 said:

I just when through 5 Norton oil pumps in three days.

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:shock: :?: :?: :?:

Yea the word got out and well someone found a box full. Not all fun

Ahem... what was that someone was saying about not having experienced any trouble with these valves (gingerly puts foot in own mouth)? Yup, just as I was thinking; "boy, I'm sure glad I don't have that problem...", apparently while fettling with the oil lines during an oil cooler install, my own valve split in the same manner. As the bike is currently dry, I didn't happen to notice until I got home from work today and began wiping down the frame... low & behold:



a clean split as reported by other users.... suffice to say I reinstalled a piece of fresh braided line SANS anti-sump valve... I suppose I should be thankful it happened on the bench rather than on the road....

Well, IMHO, the ONLY way to do this, if one feels it must be done is with some sort of manual gate valve. The problem is it has to be manually opened which (in my case) means that sooner or later, I'd forget...

I honestly cannot see any reason to do this. From everything I can gather, the WORST case re wetsumping (and I don't know anything about this compared to most folks here) is that you might force oil past a crankcase seal. To me the most serious possibility with wetsumping is like being attacked by a mosquito; a failed anti-sump valve is like being attacked by a grizzly bear.

14 years now with a simple on/off lever valve in the oil line down to the timing chest.

Turning it on before a ride is as automatic as turning on the gas petcock and turning the ignition key, putting on helmet and gloves.

I turn the lever to off while back in garage at the same time the motor is killed with that switch.

For a while at first I rigged up a thin fishing leader line between the lever and the ignition switch so that I could only turn
the bike's power on if the lever was raised up to the oil flow position.
This was good in theory, but in practice was subject to changing tensions and connections at both ends, a hassle I had to say no to.

I suppose I could still "forget" to turn the oil lever on, but in fail safe mode I have three "oil" stickons positioned on the headlamp shell, the middle of the handlebar, and right next to the gas cap on the tank. Every time I glance down I see them!

Old time machines with total-loss lubrications systems had to be pumped regularly to keep oil flowing to the bearings and keep moving parts separated enough to prevent metal-to-metal contact. I guess one more valve or lever to operate before and after a ride is no less complicated.

This thread gave me a couple of ideas:

1- Put a manual valve with a dual pole switch to disable the ignition if it not turned on and to sound a buzzer if the ignition is off and the valve is on. This way, the bike will not start if the valve is turned off and the buzzer will remind you to turn the valve off and prevent wet sumping.

2- Put an electrically operated valve in the line so when the ignition is on, the valve opens. For paranoid riders, a pilot light can be wired so it goes off when the solenoid draws current and glares a bright red if the solenoid opens up.

Jean