Alton Makes Good...really fast!

Some may know I am an authorised Alton distributor. This is just an expression of a view that I would hold in respect of any manufacturers parts. I am not speaking for Alton in any way, although obviously I have followed this thread due to my interest in all things Alton.

In respect of the failure, the one thing we do know for sure is that the parts were installed incorrectly. Somewhat of a lack of understanding of the sprag endplay concept has been demonstrated, by virtue of the fact a spacer washer that, let's state the matter plainly, quite obviously is not designed for use with the chain drive spacer, was fitted nonetheless. Clear and simple, it was not done correctly. A mistake was made. Ultimately, the person fitting the parts bears the responsibility. If that person lacks the necessary knowledge or experience, or simply just messes up(and that happens), no one else is accountable for that. You cannot blame an instruction booklet, or a spare parts person, as they do not fit the parts. The "mechanic" does. Frequently non professionals do not realise this, but it is an absolute truth.
Where there is doubt, seek assistance.
"Assuming" a part goes somewhere is never correct procedure.

I have to ask, in what sense is this a warranty claim?

It's not like I have to pay for the parts, but for all I know, potential sales may have been lost to me. Let me tell you for free, I do not appreciate it.

I personally think Alton have been very poorly treated. A dynamic was created where people were/are openly questioning the quality of the Alton product, and their intention to make a purchase, when the cause of the failure was not even known.
A new thread was started for the install, and for the output, and for the failure, and for the response from Alton. But no new thread when it was discovered the parts had been installed incorrectly. That might at least have been a nice gesture to Alton, to make it very clear to all that the various guesses and assertions that were made were not correct.

It is so easy to do harm that can never be countered. Would it not have been better to have contacted Alton first, before hitting the forum?

It is one thing to post on a forum that you prefer a particular tyre, or that you can buy this part here or there, or even advice of trouble shooting or procedure(those type of posts have a low accuracy rate however), but it is quite something else to cause potential/actual financial harm to a business that is doing their best to supply highly desirable niche parts, and that in this instance at least, would appear to have nothing to answer for.

I encourage you to start a new thread, clearly stating that parts were wrongly fitted.

There can always be warranty issues with any product, be it a tv, new car, hairdryer, or Alton eKit(possibly even a failure of this nature). And Alton are clearly excellent with their warranties. But surely it is best for warranties to be warranties, and incorrect assembly to be incorrect assembly.

Imagine you made a part, and the person you sold it to broke it when installing, because they jammed a washer in where it is obvious there should not be one. Then they put their hand out for a free replacement part, after having loudly proclaimed the failure.

How would you feel?

In respect of the failure, the one thing we do know for sure is that the parts were installed incorrectly. Somewhat of a lack of understanding of the sprag endplay concept has been demonstrated, by virtue of the fact a spacer washer that, let's state the matter plainly, quite obviously is not designed for use with the chain drive spacer, was fitted nonetheless. Clear and simple, it was not done correctly. A mistake was made. Ultimately, the person fitting the parts bears the responsibility.

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The part was included in the product and the instructions failed to identify its use, 2nd time it was identified by Alton as applicable to belt drives and the 3rd time it now transpires its only for Norvil belt drives.

As Alton have stepped up the plate on this one I do not see a problem, but it is their liability.

A technical product is only as good as the manual. The extra spacer was a curve ball for sure. It was already installed on the assembly when Mike got it... how confusing can you get? Alton or Norvil problem, not Mike's fault at all.

NorComCycles - I would never buy one from you if that is how you blame customers and throw them under the bus.

batrider said:

NorComCycles - I would never buy one from you if that is how you blame customers and throw them under the bus.

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To NorComCycles....I think that you just shot yourself in the foot....I agree with batrider's statement and I'll also buy elsewhere!
The customer isn't always right but you just showed your style of doing business, which I find less than acceptable.

Norcom. I can't argue with your statement that the parts were installed incorrectly because they were. However, if you are suggesting that a customer has full responsibility despite the packaging and instructions...well I can't agree with that. Fortunately, Alton does not agree with you either.

As I removed the parts from the box, the idea that the washer should not have been where it was already mounted would have been the same idea to me as disassembling some other part of the sprag and leaving it out of the installation - it came in the box as one component. Had the washer been simply included as a separate part in a bag, like the other starter small parts, I would have inquired as to it's purpose prior to installing since it was not mentioned in the instructions or listed on the parts list. To me it was simply part of the sprag/rotor assembly.

Re your statement about Alton - I thought this thread pretty clearly stated my satisfaction with them. Paul told me via email that they had revised the fitting instructions to make several things more clear and he also expressed surprise that the washer was mounted on the sprag in the box. I stated all that in my earlier posts. Yes, I do feel that my assumption re the washer was justified, especially since a trial check of the assembly showed the sprag to be working properly. With the primary chain cover still removed, the starter/sprag worked correctly. What I did not realize was that although the unit was working correctly there was enough friction between that washer and the sprag itself to generate the heat.

As far as not posting such information on a forum...I agree that it can cause a big problem for a manufacturer but, at the same time, I think it's more important for members of the community to be aware of issues that may arise with various products. I think my thread title made it pretty clear that I was extremely pleased with Alton's response, and I ranked them up there with Old Britts for customer service; it doesn't get any better than that.

I will consider your suggestion that I should write up another purpose-made thread to "clarify" things but I'm not sure what to say that would make it any clearer than I have.

I'm getting some popcorn, this thread just went from very interesting to legendary. :mrgreen:

I had a response to NorComCycles post all typed up and ready to send.... but thought better of it.
I'll just say again that I am glad that mike is getting his issue addressed and leave it at that.

"although obviously I have followed this thread due to my interest in all things Alton."....... "The "mechanic" does. Frequently non professionals do not realise this, but it is an absolute truth. " Amazing. Didn't follow it very close.

Looks to me like Alton and mike 996 have both performed admirably, and done exactly what they should have. Mike deserves respect for reporting the problem in a rational and thoughtful way, without badmouthing Alton. Alton deserves the same for their great response, and willingness to make changes to their instructions and packaging to prevent the problem for other customers. I think Alton's reputation has been enhanced by these threads, not diminished.

Just doing my best to keep you entertained, Dave.

Ken

swooshdave said:

I'm getting some popcorn, this thread just went from very interesting to legendary. :mrgreen:

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I was thinking something very similar!

I've got a load of molehills in my garden, but I don't know what to do with them... :wink:

I also I think Alton's reputation has been enhanced by these threads. I have read other threads regarding Alton's response to "the installation learning curve" and quite frankly after hearing about the same response from Norvil and Alton again I am much more likely to buy the product and if I do I will definitely buy it through Norvil.

I don't relish the idea of arguing with a 2nd party about whether or not the instructions are clear, I don't have the time or patience and it's obvious that Alton built a great product and they are very interested in encouraging customer feedback.

I often write technical work instructions at work and as part of my "proof read" I give them to our newest employee's and say "use these instructions and build it". If the a quality product is produced I am done, if not it's back to the computer to make it clearer. I have always done this and it was especially a challenge during the ten years I worked in Miami with a shop of employees whose native language was not English.

Thanks for the "progress report, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Dave

kommando said:

In respect of the failure, the one thing we do know for sure is that the parts were installed incorrectly. Somewhat of a lack of understanding of the sprag endplay concept has been demonstrated, by virtue of the fact a spacer washer that, let's state the matter plainly, quite obviously is not designed for use with the chain drive spacer, was fitted nonetheless. Clear and simple, it was not done correctly. A mistake was made. Ultimately, the person fitting the parts bears the responsibility.

Click to expand...

The part was included in the product and the instructions failed to identify its use, 2nd time it was identified by Alton as applicable to belt drives and the 3rd time it now transpires its only for Norvil belt drives.

As Alton have stepped up the plate on this one I do not see a problem, but it is their liability.

Click to expand...

A part was included, and it was completely unknown as to what it was. Agree totally.

It really would have been best to come to a place of greater understanding before proceeding.

I disagree entirely that it is Alton's liability.
That's my view.

It would be silly of me to respond individually to several of the other posts that have been made. I have no interest in internet arguing.

I do think the following.

My business practice is the same as every other business on the planet.
If it is a warranty, it is a warranty. If it is incorrectly installed by the customer, it is not.

Some here think it right to attack me for expressing my view. Apparently only they are allowed to express a view. Shame on you.
If my business is negatively impacted, that is important to me, even if it is not to others.

If anyone was thrown under a bus, it was Alton. The information hit the forum first, and Alton second. It would have been better for Alton if they had been contacted before the forum topic, I am sure.
A good rule is that if there is an issue, tell the supplier before you tell everyone else. It may not be as you initially think.

Yesterday morning I sent a replacement stator across country to Ben, at British Imports. I do not know if it is warranty, but I am pretty sure it will not be (most likely a reg/rec issue according to Ben, who i was speaking to for the first time ever). I am trusting Ben to make that judgement call. Alton have already indicated that they will trust my judgement of his judgement. The stator has not been paid for yet, as I indicated we would deal with that when he has determined the issue definitively. I did not sell that kit originally, so have made no profit, and under my distributorship have no obligation to assist. I did not have a stator on hand, so I opened a kit, that I can not now sell until a replacement stator arrives. That is more than $2000 tied up, so that an Alton owner, who purchased elsewhere, and who almost certainly does not have a warranty situation, can be back on the road sooner.
IN WHAT SENSE WOULD THAT BE A BUSINESS PRACTISE OF THROWING CUSTOMERS UNDR A BUS?

Those comments were very untrue.

I accept that others in this world may at times have a different view to myself, and have no concerns should any individual choose to express that view. I expect only the same courtesy in return.

Lyell
NorCom Cycles

We've probably beat this up as much as it needs to be. I don't agree with you that the customer is responsible for installation errors made due to errors/omissions in the installation instructions but, as the old saying goes, I will defend your right to hold/express that viewpoint.

Out of curiosity, what would you have done as the dealer in the same situation? From your posts and our two PMs, I would assume that right up front you would tell the customer that nothing damaged was covered under warranty. Would that have been the end of it as far as your interface with the customer is concerned or would you have worked with them to somehow sort it out?

with Mike on this, not that that should influence anyone else.

NorComCycles said:

Imagine you made a part, and the person you sold it to broke it when installing, because they jammed a washer in where it is obvious there should not be one. Then they put their hand out for a free replacement part, after having loudly proclaimed the failure.

How would you feel?

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That clearly was not the case here. Nothing was jammed anywhere. Installation was checked to see that parts could move. Instructions (clearly incomplete as they left out a seriously important detail as to the correct usage of the washer) were followed.

Alton did the right thing with the warranty. That's what really matters in the end.

Let's hope they partnered with the correct distributor.

Re the complaint of posting about product failure on a public forum. I'd never heard of Alton until Jeandr posted about their starter kit, then noticed a few adverts in Classic Bike, along with complaints of alternator failure. Personally, I'd be very reluctant to buy from a non-english company without proof of long term spares back up and customer service. I can understand teething troubles, and Alton's response was impressive. Certainly more effective than advertising, just hope someone in NZ imports them as freight from Europe is expensive..

Alton is not new to this business, manufacturing altenators and staters for Velocette and Vincents since many years, even if the Norton kit is quite new . and they have a distibutor in NZ called shed5.

JRD said:

.. and they have a distibutor in NZ called shed5.

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I spoke with the Shed 5 people late last year. Haven't had any previous dealings with them but they were very helpful on the phone and pricing sounded quite reasonable compared to importing from afar. No i haven't bought one .... yet.