69 Steering Dissasembly - stuck

It will be interesting to see what the OP has in there when he gets it apart. Wouldn't surprise me if the bottom bearing came out with the shaft. Mine had annular thrust bearings with felt seals in it, and I have no reason to believe it didn't come from the factory like that, but no proof, but I have had my bike since 72 and doubt if there was any reason to change them within that period.

Don't put plain bearings in there without the tube or use appropriate thrust bearings of your liking if you don't have the tube. I found the annular ones for about $20 each.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

Mine had annular thrust bearings with felt seals in it, and I have no reason to believe it didn't come from the factory like that, but no proof, but I have had my bike since 72 and doubt if there was any reason to change them within that period.

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Did you happen take a photo of those annular(angular?) thrust bearings by any chance or remember the bearing number?

This thread hits close to home for me! I've been stuck on the stripping of my 69 for the past couple of years trying to get the yoke assembly out of the frame to powder coat it. I didn't get as far as you however, finding that the headnut would not unscrew more then a half dozen turns and despite no apparent damage to the stem or nut and the application of more force, more people, heat and penetrating oils, I was unable to make any further progress. At the risk of damaging unreplaceable (I thought) parts, I've been riding my Triumphs around til a month or so ago when I recruited someone with an aceteleyne torch and a long cheater bar and we managed to move the nut past the end of the stem where it would turn freely but not engage any threads. Uhg! AT this point I finally said enough and used my trusty Dremel tool to cut the stem and free the yoke out the bottom. Unlike yours however, it dropped out without much further effort to reveal a set of roller bearing on the top and bottom of the head tube. I had expected a handful of loose balls to fall out in my hand sort of like an (old) Triumph. I suppose at this point I need to knock the races out from behind with a soft drift but my manual doesn't show what's supposed to be in there for bearings and seals so I have no part numbers for replacements. Dog T has told me that there were several different arrangements used in 69 as wittnessed by the difference between his bike and mine. I am considering re-using the bearings I've got pending their removal and inspection as they weren't banged on and are still packed in grease. I am wondering if there is an up-grade to this set up by using the newer tapered bearings but haven't really seen that discussed.
Moreover, I take some comfort in finding that I'm not the only one with problems taking their bike apart. Hobot, I feel your pain. It continues to amaze me how one bolt can be loose and the next requires a torch to remove! No doubt this lack of consistancy in quality control speaks to the checkerd reputation Commandos have. In retrospect, if I had it to do over, I would not have tried to disassemble the steering head, forgotten about powder coating and just touched up the finish of these parts in situ.
I guess it will all work out in the end. :roll:

I think this is them.



6203 opposite rim LTL? could be a 0, D or 8, real hard to make out. SKF and Britain also on outer rim Inner rim has LTLD so that must be the same and opposite on inner E0.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

I think this is them.

6203 opposite rim LTL? could be a 0, D or 8, real hard to make out. SKF and Britain also on outer rim Inner rim has LTLD so that must be the same and opposite on inner E0.

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I don't think they are the ones Dave? 6203 (17 x 40 x 12) is wheel bearing size. They also look like standard deep groove ball bearings. The '71-on sealed bearings are 6205 (25 x 52 x 15) so any other stem bearings would also have be 25 x 52 (x ?).

25 x 52 x 15 angular contact ball bearing is 7205. 30205J is equivalent size taper roller.

Hobot, I feel your pain. It continues to amaze me how one bolt can be loose and the next requires a torch to remove! No doubt this lack of consistancy in quality control speaks to the checkerd reputation Commandos have. In retrospect, if I had it to do over, I would not have tried to disassemble the steering head, forgotten about powder coating and just touched up the finish of these parts in situ. I guess it will all work out in the end. :roll:

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Oh Ugh Sidreilley, our show stopping manhood destroying Commando turmoils comes under the heading of what don't kill us makes us stronger, with a collection of ruined parts that are rubbed in our faces as incompetents, by those that just ain't yet experienced the full scope of Commando Challenges.

Now you've won this traumatizing effort, consider sticking a pipe or tube in the stem to access its squareness to frame as maybe a past impact helped to bind the stem into a terrific task to take on.

Maybe you can re-use your bearings as they'd go back in with new surfaces contacts. It takes a pretty bad set of stem bearings to be detectable in handling ease.

swooshdave said:

Once you hammer on a bearing like you're about to do you'll most likely mar the ball bearings into the race. When you can press out a bearing by the outer race it won't damage the balls. WIth these bearings the only way to get them out is to hammer on the stem which is frozen to the inner race(s). At about $12 ea it's just prudent to replace at this point.

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Swoosh,

Thanks for clearing that up, makes good sense.

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850cmndo said:

...: a track or channel in which something rolls or slides; specifically: a groove (as for the balls) in a bearing...

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850,

Understood, learning learning learning... Expecting a good deal of that over the next few months! Thanks!

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hobot said:

...the balls will become what is terming "brindled", ie: flat faceted in spots all around...

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Understood.

ATF and acetone plus heat/cold cycles is best freeing agents...

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Will be patient. Wash, rinse, repeat.

...i mean like ruining blindly with tear filled eyes of pain and frustration out into the Ozark night screaming to high heavens...

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"Run, Forrest! Run!"

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DogT said:

...I found the annular ones for about $20 each.

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sidreilley said:

Dog T has told me that there were several different arrangements used in 69 as wittnessed by the difference between his bike and mine.

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Dog,

Would you mind sharing what you've learned about the differing 69 set ups Sid mentioned? And how you decided to go with the annular ones? Do you remember where you found the ones you ended up using?

Thanks!

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sidreilley said:

I am wondering if there is an up-grade to this set up by using the newer tapered bearings but haven't really seen that discussed.

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Sid,

Plus one for me on that discussion.

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THANKS ALL!!!!!

Yeah, L.A.B. once again you're right. I'll check the old parts, but as I remember they were pretty beat up after getting them out of the headstock. Or was that the standard bearings I put in and took out? I'll go through my old parts. Actually I think I re-used them because I got them out in good shape.

vbro, I saw the annular thrust bearings on ebay for about $20 maybe for a pair, but most likely each? I know the auto store wanted about $50 each for them. As far as what I know about the early bearings, it's limited to what I have and what I've read on this forum. I've never seen the tapered ones, or the ones with the spacer. So I really can't help you much there. I do remember there was a long thread on the tapered bearings a few years ago.

Dave
69S

Now , WHY do you want to remove the steering stem . ? :?

Now why do ya want to remove the steering stem?

Good point if the stem's swing is easy, just paint or powder coat around it and let someone else deal with stem removal a few decades from now when they really need renewals. But as already applied cave man tactics, so source new bearings or try to re use the old.

Here are some photos of my bearings, still in place. Are these what everyone has? Pardon the fuzzzy photos, I had to use a sloooow speed.





As to the why? Hindsight is always 20/20, I agree totally with Hobot's stratedgy now, but at the time it seemed best to have a look. Despite low mileage on the clock, there were hidden secrets in this bike and I didn't want to be surprised down the line and have to tear it down again. I was going to just run the engine with a new ignition and rebuilt carbs but re-thought that idea and found broken rings when I pulled the barrels.

sidreilley said:

Here are some photos of my bearings, still in place. Are these what everyone has? Pardon the fuzzzy photos, I had to use a sloooow speed.

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Perhaps you could give us the bearing numbers?

These are the two options I have used, tapered on the left and sealed roller on the right.

L.A.B. said:

sidreilley said:

Here are some photos of my bearings, still in place. Are these what everyone has? Pardon the fuzzzy photos, I had to use a sloooow speed.

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Perhaps you could give us the bearing numbers?

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Sorry, it says R&M, 23L and 97, spaced equidistant around the outside race. Really small numbers.

Hidden broken ring eh, good move to dig in to it. I ran my 1st Combat with 30K miles on it like it was intended since it was shop demo bike. Got 2nd Combat Trixie form New Orleans a bit before Katrina hit em, well used looking, so renewed fluids and she fired right up, great idle and throttle response and front disc worked, so thought I'd lucked out. Used it 3 wk at legal rates still not confident on its electrics on insides, then just about coasting at 50 mph, heard a second of light tinkling sounds then the rear tire locked screaching.
Turned out it had soft Al gasket that had mooshed into bores to the fragil comma oil slot taboo pistons came apart. It would of been a lot cheaper and simpler to have just torn it down and build back right instead of sourcing lots of new parts and case repair.

Brindled stem bearings likely not a big deal compared to the road texture, so likely not detectable. Significant sticking stem is only d/t severely rusted bearing, so could stick old set back in if not speding $50 or so more to renew for new few decades and beyond. Next decision point is how tight to nip up the stem nut on the bearings, which should have a spacer on the inner races.

sidreilley said:

it says R&M, 23L and 97, spaced equidistant around the outside race. Really small numbers.

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Thanks, I haven't been able to identify the bearing from those numbers as yet.

bwolfie said:

These are the two options I have used, tapered on the left and sealed roller on the right.

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To avoid any confusion, the 6205 is a sealed ball bearing (standard 71-on bearing) .