360 Crank Sequence? I'm Confused.

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jaydee75

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I should know this, but I can't figure out for sure. On our bikes when both pistons are at the top and one is on TDC compression, where is the other piston in it's cycle? Is there a time when both pistons are up and neither is on compression? Maybe someone has a diagram I can understand.

Jaydee
 
Don't forget that otto cycle engines go through 720 crank degrees, 2 full revs, for a full otto cycle.
And each cylinder is a full 360 degrees out from its neighbour.

So you have essentially 2 single cylinder engines side-by-side, one out a full rev from the other.
So, one or other piston HAS to be coming up to compression, and the other will be coming up to the top of its exhaust stroke.

Suck-Squeeze-Bang-Blow.....
 
When both pistons are at TDC, one cylinder is in the compression cycle and the other is in the exhaust cycle. At the next full crank rotation the roles are switched.

Ken

Oops! Didn't see your post, Rohan, before I hit the submit button. A much better explanation.
 
One piston is always always moving up on a compression stroke while the other is moving up to finiosh exhaust stroke. There is no interval where both pistons at TDC without one being on compression stroke and the other exhaust stroke. Visa versa on down stroke one is alway on power stroke with its sister in intake stroke.
Simple as two single lawn mowers Siamese'd oppositely together like some split brain cases. To set valve lash on say RH intake make sure the intake valve on LH is fully closed on cam base circle and so on down the line one side to the other.
 
Both pistons are at TDC simultaneously. One piston has finished the compression stroke and the power stroke is about to begin. The other piston has finished the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke is about to begin. Keep in mind the engine must rotate TWICE (720 degrees) to complete the four-stroke cycle. The cycle is 1) compression, 2) power, 3) exhaust, 4) intake. (720 degree rotation). The pistons are 360 degrees out of phase with each other, as shown below.

Piston #1. 1) compression. 2 power. 3) exhaust. 4) intake
Piston #2. 1) exhaust. 2 intake. 3 compression 4 power

Hope this clears it up....don't have a diagram.

Slick
 
Make two fists and hold them out in front of you straight and parallel. Raze your arms together about a foot, look at your right fist and say "BANG" and at your left fist and say "WHOOF". Come back down with your fists, and back up again. This time at the top look at your left fist and say "BANG" and at your right fist and say "WHOOF".
BANG= ignition, and WHOOF= exhaust , and that's how a Norton or other 360 degree four cycle twin cylinder engine works. (BSA, Triumph, and some others.)
 
Jaydee, some times both pistons are on the compression stroke, and sometimes both on the exhaust stroke...but this is when only one piston is connected to the crank :lol:
our race lads have seen this...a few times i bet? :!:



jaydee75 said:
I should know this, but I can't figure out for sure. On our bikes when both pistons are at the top and one is on TDC compression, where is the other piston in it's cycle? Is there a time when both pistons are up and neither is on compression? Maybe someone has a diagram I can understand.

Jaydee
 
kinda like this
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoCk4ai46lw&list=PLNeBXT4pSI2veYETPtmUX1XFh0ZCpb7B2[/video]
 
When an endowed woman is running, both boobs rise and fall together. Let's assume the forward moving arm is the compression stroke. Even though only one arm moves forward at a time, both boobs will rise and fall together.

This is most evident at and around the 35 second mark.

video Deleted - before the complaints come rolling in - L.A.B.

Fair enough L.A.B.

But you must admit that it illustrated the 360 crank totally and effectively.

For anyone interested, I would be more that happy to PM the YouTube link to you. A little racy but not lewd, crude, or pornographic.
 
Thanks everyone. I get it now.
The movies were especially helpful and although Pete's video is indelibly etched in my mind, I am saving it so that I can watch it whenever I get confused again and need a refresher course.

Jaydee
 
So that's what I've been doing wrong. I thought my 850 was a split single like a Puch two stroke, so I had my cam ground to suit.
 
Good one on the biology of pumping opposite pistons causing both jugs to oscillate up and down uncomfortably unless cushioned.
 
The explanations show why 360-degree partallel twins vibrate so badly and why N-V tried to emulate the car industry by putting the engine on flexible mounts. Having ridden a 500 BSA twin as a yougster, then the various works "hacks" when I was working at N-V, I was best satisfied with the 650SS that I was allowed to use as my ride-to-work.

I found the Atlas and the P-11 to have far too rough a vibration signature and declined to have either one to replace the SS, which, if the odometer was to be believed, had 135,000 miles on it when I started riding it. The vibration level was acceptable by the pre-Commando standards, and having a 45-mile drive to work through Warwickshire country lanes from Kenilworth to Wolverhapton was a real bonus. I often wished we hadn't moved closer to the factory!

When we were breaking in a new P-1, before starting tests on it in response to the California dirt rider lawsuit, I hated having to drive the damn thing. It could easliy delaminte your kidneys in 100 miles, not to mention the directional instability issue.

I was riding the early break-in, limiting speed to <60 mph. It was boring until the speed got into the mid-50's. Around 45 mph, the bike started to wander - just a couple of feet side to side on about a 1/4 mile wavelength. By 60 mph, it was getting uncomfortable - using up almost the full width of a motorway lane on about the same wavelength. No amount of body English or steering input could keep it under control. The other test rider, who got a higher maximum speed limit (90 mph) after I'd done the break-in miles, said that the wandering died down above 80 mph.

Because of the vibration, bits were alway falling off. On one trip, I lost the entire rear-light assembly. The attachment bolts vibrated loose and the whole thing fell off. IMO, the Atlas and the P-11 were Norton's two worst machines. I include the Jubilee, Electra and Navigator in that list!
 
frankdamp said:
The explanations show why 360-degree partallel twins vibrate so badly and why N-V tried to emulate the car industry by putting the engine on flexible mounts. Having ridden a 500 BSA twin as a yougster, then the various works "hacks" when I was working at N-V, I was best satisfied with the 650SS that I was allowed to use as my ride-to-work.

I owned a 66 BSA 650 Hornet before I bought my first Commando back in 75. We had those cushion grips back then (can't remember what they were called) but they supposedly reduced the vibration in your hands...but I remember the vibration clearly...you felt the power of the engine through your hands, into your arms and eventually my teeth were chattering. As I recall those of us who rode them just figured it was part of the whole experience. It did cause fatigue and sometimes on longer rides my hands were numb. Riding the Commando for the first time was amazing after living with the vibration...it was smooth as silk when compared to the BSA.
 
frankdamp said:
The explanations show why 360-degree partallel twins vibrate so badly and why N-V tried to emulate the car industry by putting the engine on flexible mounts.

Maybe someone at NVT had a Sunbeam.
They had a rubber mounted engine as far back as the late 1940's in an effort to isolate the 360 degree twin vibrations.

360 Crank Sequence?  I'm Confused.
 
Does the staggered crank actually cause minimization of vibration ? I've heard it transforms the twin motor. I've thought about it, however decided not to go there - I can drive myself mad enough with the normal configuration.
 
acotrel said:
Does the staggered crank actually cause minimization of vibration ? I've heard it transforms the twin motor. I've thought about it, however decided not to go there - I can drive myself mad enough with the normal configuration.


I have ridden two Norton 500 twins with 90 degree cranks.

One was on the road and was a soft tuned bike which was often matched up with a sidecar. This bike felt rumbly if thats a word that makes sense. Soft and you felt more road and transmission movement. Like putting your hand on the dashboard of a old english sports car.

The other one was a race bike on methanol. This one reved like crazy. I tried to be careful but it would spin up to over 8000 rpm in a heart beat. It felt like a turbo !!! Like a multicylinder jap 4. Almost like an electic motor. I was impressed.

Both bikes were in wideline featherbed fames and were built by their engineer owners. ie home made crankshafts. Both guys had very long racing experience.
 
acotrel said:
I've heard it transforms the twin motor.

Of course it does so - with 360deg pin offset there are only mass forces and the engine vibrates in its X-Z-plane. As soon as the pin offset is different from this there will be a mass moment which will cause the engine to wobble.

Utter BS if paired with Isolastics which were designed for wobble-free engines like singles, "true" P-twins and V-twins with no cylinder offset.



Tim
 
I wasn't referring to the 360 degree offset, but the 270 degree crank which gives the same stagger as a Ducati V twin. My feeling is that the CB450 Honda which was one up one down was disgusting - never as quick as a hot 500cc Triumph twin.
I've looked at the MAP website, and they produce a billet 270 degree crank, also Megacycle produce cams. My problem is that I cannot imagine how the crank should be balanced, what sort of two into one exhaust would work. The cam grinding if I wanted to find the best , would be a killer.

http://www.offsetcrank.com/thefirst.htm

http://www.mapcycle.com/map/index.php/c ... 17263.html
 
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