300+ mile ride on the norton this weekend

Well I successfully took the norton out on a 300+ mile ride this weekend. I rode a great route through the mountains of southern california and al lwent well, well at least most went well!

Started out the first 100 miles everythings great, but then I noticed some oil weeping from the primary. Yes I do have a xs650 valve and yes its in properly and yes it works yes yes yes... I placed a mark on the oil dipstick and noticed throughout the day I lost 1/2 quart of oil to the primary. I ended up draining the primary halfway trhrough the ride but it still would overfiull and weep making a little of a mess.

Other than that though the ride was awesome. The bike ran great and we had a great time. I wsas the only one on the ride with a vintage bike so when we went on the freeway I didnt even try to hang with the vstroms and bmw's...

Now I have the primary off and am looking to find a good crankshaft oil seal to fit as well as look for cracks in the case etc. Looks good though so I will be fitting a new seal and trying that.

I noticed (more than a few) crank to primary stories on the boards. Aside from the pcv discussion, whats everyones best choice for the seal itself? I see this part suggested http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p32148 ... _info.html as wel as the "steve maney" one.... I would like to find a best quality seal as I just dont like pulling the primary apart too much. it is a good chanfce to get things clean though

Heres a pic of me and my dad from about halfway.. This is the "sheideck inn" off of hwy 33 in southern cal. Its got some history.

Sounds like a good ride to me!

Those black rims look pretty cool.

Now how do I get this crank oil seal off so i can replace it? And of course whats the concensus on the best replacement seal?



Thanks for the kudos on the rims! The rear rim is nicely coated with oil from my primary

Hey, good ride. Two things to check, the gearbox leaking into the primary, but mostly the 3 studs that hold the inner primary on the motor case. I installed 3 studs and red locktighted them in with plenty of cleaning, it should prevent oil from the crank into the primary. Put nuts on the inside and blue locktight, you'll have to relieve one of the nuts. You can get the studs at the local auto. I got the idea from hobot.

It may be the seal, and not a bad idea to change it, I think you can put a couple of screws in it an pull it, but it's ruined. Just fit a new one.

Glad you and your dad are having a good shot at riding. It's a great place to ride.

Dave
69S

It seems to be quite common to blow the seal if the bike is run at a fairly high Rpm, say 4500, with a sump full of oil. I blew mine a few years ago in this way. Now I take it really easy until the pump has done its job and pulled the excess oil from the sump. If the bike is ridden once a week or so, I dont worry about it, the sump level stays fine. If it is left much longer then its best to keep the rpm below 3000 for the first five minutes or so, then go to it.
This works on my bike (mk3)but I imagine some bikes wet sump quicker or slower, depending on the state of the oil pump. I recall that some owners will kick the engine thru just onto compression stroke after usage, supposedly that can slow the drip. I think the mk 3 got an antisump valve which helps, but doesnt seem to entirely cure the problem.

As far as which seal to use, I used the Norvil supplied item, no problems to date.

Glen

I did notice that the threads for these bolts were helicoiled and looked like theres no evidence of any thread locking compound or silicone in the threads. I notated this and noticed other discussions talking about sealing these with studs and loctite or silicone. I will definitely take your good advice and get the studs and nuts and use the red and blue loctite...

So just put a screw through the seal and yank it out huh? now to install I just fit a new one over it and use a drift or something with a large socket?

DogT said:

Hey, good ride. Two things to check, the gearbox leaking into the primary, but mostly the 3 studs that hold the inner primary on the motor case. I installed 3 studs and red locktighted them in with plenty of cleaning, it should prevent oil from the crank into the primary. Put nuts on the inside and blue locktight, you'll have to relieve one of the nuts. You can get the studs at the local auto. I got the idea from hobot.

It may be the seal, and not a bad idea to change it, I think you can put a couple of screws in it an pull it, but it's ruined. Just fit a new one.

Glad you and your dad are having a good shot at riding. It's a great place to ride.

Dave
69S

Click to expand...

Actually one of my crank side holes had been opened up to a 3/8" from the 5/16" by the PO. Don't know why but can imagine why. It's a pretty thin area. I think there are better things out there than helicoils, I forget the name, but check them out. The crank is UNC (may be BSW, not sure) and the nut or primary side is UNF, and you can get them at the auto store in 1" studs. You need to clean the threads out completely with acetone or similar to get the red locktite to bond and prevent the oil flow from the crank to the primary. I did a thead on this a long time ago. I'll see if I can find it, but it's pretty apparent what you have to do.

It's pretty close tolerance from the inner crank face to the crank itself, so be careful.

Dave
69S

timecerts? something like that i think...

If you find that thread I would appreciate if you post a link. I will defintiely be looking in the meantime. This site is my library to guide me to getting this bike running well I try to be diligent about using the search button and so on but these days it seems I just cant find exactly what I am looking for.

DogT said:

Actually one of my crank side holes had been opened up to a 3/8" from the 5/16" by the PO. Don't know why but can imagine why. It's a pretty thin area. I think there are better things out there than helicoils, I forget the name, but check them out. The crank is UNC (may be BSW, not sure) and the nut or primary side is UNF, and you can get them at the auto store in 1" studs. You need to clean the threads out completely with acetone or similar to get the red locktite to bond and prevent the oil flow from the crank to the primary. I did a thead on this a long time ago. I'll see if I can find it, but it's pretty apparent what you have to do.

It's pretty close tolerance from the inner crank face to the crank itself, so be careful.

Dave
69S

Click to expand...

I'll find it, Yeah, timeserts or something. post104168.html

Dave
69S

thanks for the reference thread. It shows a good picture. Now I have to find the right size hardware so the nut bolt dont stick out too far!

im still contemplating the best approach to pull that seal... I ordered 2 from the UK just now though so I guess I have 10 or so days to figure it out

Hopefully I got the right size and all.. I kinda haphazardly blindedly bought the one from a thread on here. Thought about it afterwards and went uh oh, I didnt doublecheck! :mrgreen:

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p32148 ... _info.html

"2 x 1.18x1.75x0.18 inch Nitrile Rubber Oil Seal Type R21 / SC (1.18x1.75x0.18_R21) = £3.82"


Thanks again for the help everyone!

two easy ways:

1) use a seal picker : http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/O-Ring-Seal- ... 5893c42b3f

,or,

2) drill a hole in the seal ( in the metal casing ), say 1/4, an lever it out with a screw driver, sometimes a little tap on the screwdriver help ( or drill a hole and use the picker, most auto stores will have seal pickers ) .

Make sure you put sealant on the three bolts.

You could put the covers back on fill the head with oil, let it flow down into the sump and see what leaks, I had exactly the same problem you are having, I replaced the seal, only to find it was infact the holes in the cases used to "knock out" the old bearings, added sealant, not more problems.

The seals are pretty simple and generally not the problem. ( most auto stores also have suitable seals )

Great ride story.

Do you know how old the crank seal is?

I ended up drilling a tiny pilot hole in the seal and installing a screw and pulled it out. It came out easy, almost too easy.

Also the face of the seal had wear between the edge of the metal and the rubber. The seal looked new though. It had no cracks or anything that looked "aged" at all...I'm starting to lean towards all the posts about the three bolts leaking through the threads. The combo of no silicone/loctite and helicoils makes me wonder if there was enough play to allow the oil through when hot. Regardless I'm going all in and fixing both the bolts and the seal.

I usually do these rides on my rc51 and its a lot of fun. But this time being able to ride the norton was special. It really was a great thing for me. I look forward to more vintage rides.

A few months ago I rode the 73 honda xl250 to work (40mi canyon each way) and that was a great experience as well.

swooshdave said:

Great ride story.

Do you know how old the crank seal is?

Click to expand...

Are you using the XS650 valve on the hose from the timed breather? I've heard of at least one person that tried it but it didn't work out. You might want to see if one of Jim Comstock's different breather valves would fit on your bike. Then you could cap off the timed breather.

I can't see the primary case bolts leaking a half a quart of oil in one day. My money's on the seal, but any seal is going to be overcome if the pressure is high enough.

Another common place of leakage is the two inner primary mounting hole there at 4 and 8 oclock.

iceteanolemon said:

Now how do I get this crank oil seal off so i can replace it? And of course whats the concensus on the best replacement seal?

Thanks for the kudos on the rims! The rear rim is nicely coated with oil from my primary

Click to expand...

rpatton said:

Are you using the XS650 valve on the hose from the timed breather? I've heard of at least one person that tried it but it didn't work out. You might want to see if one of Jim Comstock's different breather valves would fit on your bike. Then you could cap off the timed breather.

Click to expand...

Good call, I assumed it was a later bike but the reed valve on the timed breather isn't going to be very effective.

rpatton said:

Are you using the XS650 valve on the hose from the timed breather? I've heard of at least one person that tried it but it didn't work out. You might want to see if one of Jim Comstock's different breather valves would fit on your bike. Then you could cap off the timed breather.

I can't see the primary case bolts leaking a half a quart of oil in one day. My money's on the seal, but any seal is going to be overcome if the pressure is high enough.

Click to expand...

yeha I tried the xs650 breather valve but of course I dont have to say it didnt work heh

My tach doesnt leak or my valve covers... but I bought a special seal for the tach and resurfaced the valve covers.

I noticed a pool of oil this morning from the 4 o clock hole.