1962 650ss Build

t ingermanson said:

I'll stick my nose into this by saying I think you'd have a difficult time with spoke tension or a hammer blow(s).

Spoke tension: the hub flanges are designed to resist exactly what you're asking them to do. If it does move, it wouldn't be a good hub. You're more likely to break the flange at the spoke holes than make it round again.

Hammer blow: too random and no good way to make it not so.

I'd try to find a half round something that fits as perfectly as you can find (old brake shoe?) to use a backing. Insert that into the round half of the liner, and find a 1/2" bolt and nut (or a bit of all-thread and a couple nuts on the ends) that spans the gap to the flat spot with some semi-flexible material to pad the liner from the nut. By pushing against a small spot (nut) from a big area (old brake shoe) with the bolt and nut you'll have way more control. You can go slow: half turn, back it off, measure, repeat. Think of it as a slow-mo hammer blow.

All the above done with backed off spoke tension.

20 thou isn't much, but the resulting flat spot in the flange and inconsistent spoke tension is a bigger worry because they won't be addressed by scraping the 20 thou off the brake lining. The brake should be a pretty powerful stopper and a lot of force translated to the rim through the spokes from the hub flanges. Those hub flanges are keeping your chin off the pavement.

On we drift!!!

Click to expand...

Brake drums can be pulled oval by spoke tension
Unfortunately I have done it myself and heard of it many times
I have also skimmed many hubs perfectly true
I can only tell you about things I have actually done myself,not what I have an opinion on








Brake drum (front) skimming:
I have read where some seem to believe that you should turn your drum AFTER it is spoked and trued.
How important is this? 20 inch throw lathes are less common than 10 inch... https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/brake-drum-skimming.18478/

Fairly certain I got a second quality brake. The right side liner is new but pitted and a bit rough in several spots and 20 thou out in a small span. I have not examined the left side liner yet, but it is probably the same. Whether CRS was aware of the poor quality or not is a mystery.

I have a couple of tool ideas that would slide down over the axle at one end and be adjustable for length at the other. Would also include a handle to stabilize the tool. I'd have to make them. Only going to make a tool if I can't figure out how to do it with the emery cloth on the shoes. The 230mm 4LS is not like a small 2LS brake. It is a handful.

Using a hammer was a joke. No way would the drum survive a hammer.

I'll do a spoke and rim check before mounting the wheel and brake once I'm done.

Seanalex,
How's the bike working?

baz said:

Brake drums can be pulled oval by spoke tension
Unfortunately I have done it myself and heard of it many times
I have also skimmed many hubs perfectly true
I can only tell you about things I have actually done myself,not what I have an opinion on








Brake drum (front) skimming:
I have read where some seem to believe that you should turn your drum AFTER it is spoked and trued.
How important is this? 20 inch throw lathes are less common than 10 inch... https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/brake-drum-skimming.18478/

Click to expand...

For sure, but pulling a visible flat spot out of the liner by the flange seems wishful thinking.

I always skim after lacing (and even once a tire is on-because why not?), and it's never perfectly round, but there's never flat spots either. I shoot for even spoke tension over rim runout, but pay close attention to both.

For liner skimming, I use my Bridgeport mill rather than a big lathe, but only for the convenience of perpendicularity that's already set up more than the use of the motor. Boring bar in the spindle, wheel axle (or appropriate proxy) clamped in the vise parallel to the boring bar, spin the wheel by hand and run the spinning wheel's liner into the stationary boring bar using the knee with little y-axis bites until it's round. Once it's round, you'll need to arc the shoes at .030"-ish under the liner diameter by lining the liner with 80 grit sandpaper (about .015-.020 thick) and sweeping the shoes against the sandpaper until it's all even. The same liner skimming could be done otherwise with low tech tools, but more careful measuring would be needed when setting up.

I tried a sanding roll in the spindle once and it was an absolute mess of abrasive material all over the mill. Not ideal...

After that, it's only hours of pad adjustment to get it working up to it's potential! Easy peasy!

I have really enjoyed following your build Seanalex...please keep it coming.

not quite there yet. carbs were flooding a bit, so took them back off and apart for the 9th time. A few more searches on here revealed to me that I had not done sufficient job in cleaning the carbs. I took apart the inner jet block and I think to have found my problem. Lots of crud in there, and shot destroyed paper washers. I think that was letting the gas up into the chamber and out from that small air hole at the mouth of the carb.

Also spent a good bit of time making sure all the small holes were clear and good to go. The one thing I'm scratching my head about is whether or not each carb should have the exact same types air mixture screws. One of the screws that I have has a brass end fitting and is clearly original to the carb. The replacement screw that I had ordered from Hitchcocks has a tiny small pilot hole drilled into the end of the tip of the screw.

I'm kicking myself over this, and I'm fairly confident I have switched out one of the screws with a premier carb that I have for another bike, but the screw length is different. The one I'm hoping is for the Monobloc is longer, and fits perfect into the hole. Just curious if one carb is meant to have this as a pilot and the other is not?

Both carbs that I have are the 376 variety, and one is the chopped version. Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. I was kind of thinking of just putting the 930 concentric onto this bike, just as I'm already familiar with the tuning, running, cleaning, and servicing of the 930amal.But, I really don't want to spend another $500, and wait a few more weeks. So I'm reverting back to getting this running and going with the mono blocs, and then if I'm still not happy, changing to 930s later on in life.

Only outstanding issue is I didn't invest a ton of time into what would be needed and replaced on the 376's. I bought the basics and cleaned it up as best I could, but I'm starting to see that there will most likely be more issue here than anticipated.


I also have an annoying feeling that I'm going to have to take apart the inner primary and make sure that it's seated over the gearbox sleeve. I just have this feeling that it's rubbing, as it has that dull metal on metal thud sound. I can't for the life of me move the inter primary back any further than it already is, without coming into greater contact with the rear chain. Any of you belt drive lovers have any thoughts on this?

Sorry, I'm no use on this other than to say I have the Newby on a 650ss with stock covers and there is nothing dragging.
I installed that along with a Newby drive on a Vincent Special about 8 years ago.
I can recall the Vincent installation as it was quite a chore.
For the Dommie installation I just followed the instructions and it went ok. Can't remember any hiccups there and it has been a trouble free drive system to date.
Are you using the stock inner?
Does the clutch require hardened spacers behind the hub like the Commando clutch? I can't recall but will look at parts diagrams. The Dommie parts diagrams leave a lot to be desired. Early Commando diagrams are better, late Commando are better again.

Glen

I am using the stock inner. There is no drag from the clutch, but from the GB shaft itself. Feel like its dragging at the point where it goes through the inner primary. Like I need to move back the case a cm so that the shaft can stick through that circle plate that slides for adjustment.

I cut down the splined shaft by 2mm, as Bob recommends for the dommi GB, and shortened the clutch rod a bit as well.

Heres a question for you Glen, do you have anything behind your clutch? Like any type of circlip or spacer or washer? The instructions that came with were pretty thin. I spoke to someone local who had one set up on a Goldstar motor in a slimline. He told me he didn't have anything behind it, just washer and nut on the splined shaft inside the clutch.

I feel like the early Gearboxes don't have that circlip groove like the later ones.

I can't recall.
Just had a look at the parts diagram for the stock clutch.
It doesn't show a spacer or a circlip.

I've got all the parts you're mentioning (Newby clutch, stock inner, with a Domi motor and gearbox in a frame) on my ongoing project right now. I can try and dry assemble it to give a second clearance data point if you think that would help.

On my Triton, I got rid of the washer and spring on the inner because clearance was close to nil. You don't really need it because you're not trying to keep oil in, just debris out, and with a fender, there's not much opportunity for debris to get in there. In fact, I milled out the hole so I could access the sprocket nut without removing the inner, including the alternator, et al. Things are a little different on that bike, but not that much.

The aluminum crank pulley's inside had become damaged by the end of the spline on the crank, so I found a steel washer to mate against the end of the spline on the crank and milled off the same thickness from the pulley. I'm assuming that could also be a problem on the Norton/AMC mainshaft, so I might take the same approach. (edit: that last part is wrong and not applicable)

If indeed you're scraping the inner, maybe a thin washer would kill two birds, by protecting the clutch's spline and buy you that bit of room the avoid the scrape? (edit: one of those birds was never in the tree to begin with)

I've never gotten any instructions on my Newby kits! Didn't even know there was such a thing!

**edit: Just looked at the parts and the clutch center is totally different than I remember, with the stop welded onto the clutch center to abut the end of the mainshaft spline. Egg on my face. As a mea culpa, I assembled things, and the closest I could get the back of the basket to the inner face of the the chaincase was 4mm. The back of the basket is anodized, so should definitely show scrapes with the case if you remove it. The little movable debris guard centered over the gearbox mainshaft is pretty close to the sprocket nut though. Much closer than any part of the clutch. Maybe that's your culprit? Does the scrape change frequency with a change of gear or clutch engagement= nut/sprocket/chain vs mainshaft/clutch.

Sean
Just to cap off the CRS brake issue I ran into. It was only the right side drum liner that had two humps in it.

Das Fix: I put the hub wheel rim and tire assembly on an axle standing straight up in my vise. Rubber adhered a 1 1/8" wide strip of 80 grit emery cloth to one shoe. I then dropped the plate down over the axle and proceeded to spin the wheel by hand. When it got easier to spin I had to apply some brake. To hold the brake plate steady I used a long spacer for the axle and tightened the axle nut down on the spacer which sat on the top of the plate. The bottom of the brake plate pressed up to the right side bearing like it normally does. The other side hub bearing rode on the axle stub.

I did the manual spin for one heck of a long time. At least 4 hours. I could not easily move my floor stand drill press over to my vise to use it as a spin motor. Sort of regret not trying that, but I did not. Pulled the emery cloth off the brake shoe and cleaned the adhesive off the brake shoe with lacquer thinner.

Went for a test ride today. Much improved. Still a little bit of light soft chatter on really hard braking, but not front end bar shaking like it was. If the shoes can't finish the job, I'll pull it off again and do it with 60 grit. Should have done that in the first place, but 80 grit is all I could get close by.

Also the left side fork seal healed itself. I think it was fork oil that wept out from having the bike tied down halfway through its travel for a month. Or ?

OK no more brake talk from me. Thanks for putting up with my shenanigans.

I spent about an hour on my wonky A10 brake. My guess is that I removed about 5 thou or so. It was enough to go from horrid to perfect.
The Vincent wasn't as bad, it was just enough of a pulsation to take the enjoyment out of riding the bike.
It took a bit less time per brake, but it has two brakes at the front , so still an hour or so total.

Sounds like you are getting close.
An auto parts shop should have the self adhesive discs.
They do not leave any adhesive on the shoe or drum and they are easy to use.


Glen

Schwany said:

Sean
Just to cap off the CRS brake issue I ran into. It was only the right side drum liner that had two humps in it.

Das Fix: I put the hub wheel rim and tire assembly on an axle standing straight up in my vise. Rubber adhered a 1 1/8" wide strip of 80 grit emery cloth to one shoe. I then dropped the plate down over the axle and proceeded to spin the wheel by hand. When it got easier to spin I had to apply some brake. To hold the brake plate steady I used a long spacer for the axle and tightened the axle nut down on the spacer which sat on the top of the plate. The bottom of the brake plate pressed up to the right side bearing like it normally does. The other side hub bearing rode on the axle stub.

I did the manual spin for one heck of a long time. At least 4 hours. I could not easily move my floor stand drill press over to my vise to use it as a spin motor. Sort of regret not trying that, but I did not. Pulled the emery cloth off the brake shoe and cleaned the adhesive off the brake shoe with lacquer thinner.

Went for a test ride today. Much improved. Still a little bit of light soft chatter on really hard braking, but not front end bar shaking like it was. If the shoes can't finish the job, I'll pull it off again and do it with 60 grit. Should have done that in the first place, but 80 grit is all I could get close by.

Also the left side fork seal healed itself. I think it was fork oil that wept out from having the bike tied down halfway through its travel for a month. Or ?

OK no more brake talk from me. Thanks for putting up with my shenanigans.

Click to expand...

On my Suzuki 4ls I have on the front of my A10 only one side of the brake drum had gone out of shape
The rear brake hub also went out of shape on that bike

Now running into a new odd problem with trying to get this thing started. The kickstart spring keeps jumping out of its locating hole on the inner case. Happens on about the second or third kick, and I'm not even really trying yet. Not sure what at all happened here. Ive relocated the spring into its hole a few times, and each time it keeps jumping out.

Its strange because it was operationally fine for the past several months that the box has been finished.

Just to be clear, I should be pulling the spring in a clockwise motion to then insert the end into the hole. I'm using a spring puller, and it has pretty decent tension. I'm getting nervous that I'm making this hole larger.

Do you have a photo showing the spring in place?
Best is to put the spring end fully in the ks shaft first, no tension, then pull the hook end clockwise to go over the peg.
Clockwise tension on the part that goes in the ks sounds backwards.

Glen

Yeah. That’s exactly how I have it set up.

Looking at it again, and wishing it was easy to post a video, I think I see exactly what’s happening.

Too much endplay in the kickstart shaft. And as the shaft floats outboard, the spring walks itself out of the locating hole.

Quite annoyed. Now guess I’ll have to take off the inner cover and fit shims over the shaft from the inner side of the box.

Just a photo will do.
I have the Mick Hemmings gearbox video here to compare.

worntorn said:

Just a photo will do.
I have the Mick Hemmings gearbox video here to compare.

Click to expand...

So it’s all wound with good tension.

Checking with the dial gauge after a brief search it’s moving, yes I believe that to be true 0.57” in and out.

So I think when I’m coming down on the i
Kick it’s pushing the shaft out.

Something must not have been seated correctly when i had checked it before.

Photo of the gauge with the amount of movement from all the way in

That appears different from the Commando
gearbox.
The Commando ks spring goes into the shaft at about the 8 o'clock position.
The other end of the spring has a loop that hooks over a peg.

Glen

Yeah. This is the pre ‘63 gearbox.