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Neil
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 56
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:11 am Post subject: Engine/ Frame Numbers |
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Hi,
My Commando MK2A 1975 has on the registration document frame# 112958 and engine# 318577, the engine number was found on the aluminium plate and matches the registration document.
Where do I find the frame number as I'm checking to make sure they match.
Thanks,
Neil |
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Jason Curtiss
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 667
Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Neil,
The frame number is steel stenciled onto the steering head tube on the right-hand side. It’s often difficult to see without looking closely with a bright light. Notably, this number will not match the engine number.
Jason |
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L.A.B.
Moderator
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 1946
Location: Norfolk, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Jason Curtiss wrote: | | Notably, this number will not match the engine number. |
Jason,
My own 850 Mk3 certainly does have matching numbers on the headstock plate, frame and gearbox! The engine would have been the same as well but the cases have been replaced with new items. |
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Jason Curtiss
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 667
Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: |
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L.A.B.,
You must have one of those rare MK IIIs  !
All of the ’75 Commandos I’ve seen stateside have a frame number that is different than the engine/transmission number. My ’75 is actually titled with the frame number, not the engine number. I think this identification number mismatch between engine and frame is unique to the ’75 model and to Commandos exported to the US. Perhaps Ron can expound on this subject.
Jason |
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L.A.B.
Moderator
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 1946
Location: Norfolk, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| As I have read and also been informed by a more knowledgeable person than myself that a lot of 850's had Italian built frames, (these are supposedly identified by the stamped headstock 'F' prefix, and the first number digit changed to '1') the British (Reynolds Tubing) manufactured frames more likely to have the matching numbers possibly? |
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illf8ed
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: engine/frame numbers |
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Hi Jason,
It gets a little confusing when talking about frame numbers on 850s. As you said all of the 850s I've seen have a number stamped on the head tube preceded with "F" that's different than the number on the engine. The aluminum plate number sometimes matches the engine number and sometimes matches the frame number. My understanding is the same as L.A.B. that the "F" are the Italian made frames.
No such issue with 750 Commandos. All ID plate and engine numbers matched from production and no stamped numbers on the frame tubes.
Another point of identification for 850 frames is the part number stamped on the left gas tank mount facing forward.
064140 is 1973
065404 is 1974
Don't get excited if your '74 has a 064140. Norton probably had left over frames while producing the '74 model. My '74 JPN was like this. |
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Jason Curtiss
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 667
Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I got home from work and checked the number stenciled into the steering tube. The prefix is 850F..., so it must have been made in Italy.
Thanks L.A.B. and illf8ed for the interesting info on Norton frames!
Jason |
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Neil
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Checked out my frame number that was stamped into the headstock on the right hand side of the bike. The number is 850 F132272, I take it the bike has an Italian made frame?
What is the difference if any? Are they good or bad as this one looks alright.
The aluminium plate on the other side of the headstock has the number 318577 which matches the engine number.
Thanks,
Neil |
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L.A.B.
Moderator
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 1946
Location: Norfolk, UK
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What is the difference if any? |
From what has been written about this apparently the Norton factory test riders could tell the difference in a blind test whether the bike they were riding had an Italian or British frame!
Many of the Italian frames were sent to Reynolds to be inspected and to have faults corrected after various Italian framed bikes were found to have handling problems. A lot of frames were found to be out of alignment, other faults included tubes that were found to be the wrong gauge and also tubes made of the wrong grade of steel! |
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Neil
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information L.A.B.
A further question: When checking the registration certificate the engine number matches with the one on the aluminium plate. The VIN/Chassis/Frame No. on the document is 112958 and doesn't match the one stampted into the headstock which is F132272.
Does this matter?
Thanks again,
Neil |
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L.A.B.
Moderator
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 1946
Location: Norfolk, UK
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Neil,
I am guessing you are in the UK?
If so then you may have some problems at MoT time now the test has become computerised, the frame and engine number details are supposed to match those on the registration document and these now have to be entered on to the MoT database. I think the test can go ahead but the DVLA will contact you about any discrepancy.
Of course if you do not live in the UK then disregard what I have just said!
___________________________________________
The 850 MkIII frames are supposed to have started from F125001, so F132272 would seem to be from the MkIII series? Is there a number on the front of the L/H frame tank mounting bracket? A MkIII frame should be stamped 06-5632. |
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Mebbo
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Dec 73 build, 74 model year 850 with the "850F.." frame stamp, but unfortunately no aluminium plate (not uncommon). On other makes (BSA etc) with matching numbers, the frames would have to have been made in the same place as the motor, or all the numbers put on at the last minute when the bikes were built up. On these other makes, the frame number is often painted over, so may have been stamped prior to painting. Seems like a pain for factory logistics, keeping things together.
Norton, however, had the frames made in factories separate from the engine, both in UK and Italy, so they only met the motor at the end. So they devised the aluminium plate, which they fixed to the frame when the bike was assembled, and stamped it with the engine number. Hence "matching" numbers and build date, and original factory frame-engine(and gearbox) sets.
There is some evidence that the "850F.." frame stamping is actually a batch number and not unique, as there are rumours that some people in places where the title contains the "850F.." number have been mistakenly pinged for having someone else's bike, as they had the same frame number!
And if you think about it, the "850F.." frame number shouldn't resemble at all the engine number, particulary if the frame is being made in Italy and the engine in the UK. Can't imagine Norton sorting through loads of imported frames, to find the right number for any given engine. I don't imagine they would have bothered!!
Mebbo |
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Neil
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| L.A.B. wrote: |
___________________________________________
The 850 MkIII frames are supposed to have started from F125001, so F132272 would seem to be from the MkIII series? Is there a number on the front of the L/H frame tank mounting bracket? A MkIII frame should be stamped 06-5632. |
Checked out the left hand tank mounting bracket and sure enough - found underneath the layers of paint the number 06-5632 which I assume is a MK3 frame. I am a UK resident.
How the wrong frame number is on the document I don't know. The bike was supposidly bought brand new from a shop in Nottingham, UK and then sold to the second owner in Grantham, Lincolnshire 6 years ago. I am the third owner from new.
I am becoming suspicious as the man re-building the engine has found many things. His main finding was a copied racing camshaft that was fitted, that is a pattern and various other things. As to date, I have had to replace the camshaft, cam followers, pistons, valves, big end shells but things like the bores were ok - just needed honing.
The person building the bike assures me when the engine is finished it will be near perfect. I only hope he is right as it has certainly cost some money.
Thanks again for your replies,
Neil |
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kommando
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 322
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Neil, my 850 MK2A is registered the same way even though like yours it has the aluminium plate with a number matching the eng number. I am in the UK too , one of these days I will get a DVLC bod to comeout and correct it but first need to get a dating cert from NOC to prove I am correct. |
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Ron Hulton
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Damn Snow !!!!!!!!!!
Curiousity got the best of me, so today i went out to check s/n #'s
The bike is a 75 / 850 Roadster . The manufacture stamp is dated 7 - 75
All serial numbers match and would appear to be original |
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Norton Commando Forum by Corporate Pages Web hosting using phpbb
The Unapproachable Norton Commando
At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.
The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.
It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.
Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.
It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.
The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.
