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Spark Plugs?
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jsouthard



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 42
Location: Detroit Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Spark Plugs? Reply with quote

I recently installed a single mikuni 34mm carb. It idles at much lower rpm's and when i'm riding its aggressive but smooth. Big upgrade!

At idle although low its really choppy and won't start without the choke (hot or cold). I recently had a boyer ignition installed.

When i pulled the spark plugs after riding for a minute and they are pitch black.

Any ideas??
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tpeever



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs? Reply with quote

jsouthard wrote:
I recently installed a single mikuni 34mm carb. It idles at much lower rpm's and when i'm riding its aggressive but smooth. Big upgrade!

At idle although low its really choppy and won't start without the choke (hot or cold). I recently had a boyer ignition installed.

When i pulled the spark plugs after riding for a minute and they are pitch black.

Any ideas??


What size jets? Needle?
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jsouthard



Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 42
Location: Detroit Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running a 240 main jet.

The needle size is the stock that came pre installed on the mikuni.
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ML



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the same Mikuni set up on my 850 Mk2. Plugs get sooty, mostly on around town work and yes, the Mikuni must have that choke lever on for 2 miles in summer and 3 in winter (Australia so may be more in snowville)

Big thing is to check that the manifold is tight up on the head with no leak points around the gasket. I find the Mikuni returns 10% better gas mileage and is hell better all round for accelaration and idle than the twin Anals.

The sooty plugs was more evident on around town rides and the consensus from the local British MC crew is- todays fuel is crap. Its part synthetic alco mix, OK for injected Toyotas but 2 valve long stoke air cooled carb motors from the 60's...no.

The cure for this potential sooting up the plugs which can cause hard starting and poor cold running is the NGK Iridium spark plug. Take it from me and several others, these Iridiums go along way make more start less fart.

The standard NGK plug is BP7ES 0.6 gap
Iridium Option BPR7EIX 0.6 gap (this is fixed can't be altered you'll see why)

The Mikuni Carb spec should be -

Model - VM34
Main Jet - 200
Needle Jet - P2
Needle - 6DP1
Idle Jet - 20
Slide - 2 1/2 (OK to go to 3)

It works for me, stock 850Mk2, 150 PSI compression in each cylinder with a Boyer analogue ignition.


Mick.
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tpeever



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ML wrote:
I got the same Mikuni set up on my 850 Mk2. Plugs get sooty, mostly on around town work and yes, the Mikuni must have that choke lever on for 2 miles in summer and 3 in winter (Australia so may be more in snowville)

The Mikuni Carb spec should be -

Model - VM34
Main Jet - 200
Needle Jet - P2
Needle - 6DP1
Idle Jet - 20
Slide - 2 1/2 (OK to go to 3)



Should be no need to run the starting circuit for that long. I use mine for about 20-30 seconds to start (maybe slightly longer in cold weather) and then turn it off and raise the idle temporarily. Running with the starting circuit on this long is presumably what is causing your sooty plugs. Seems like your idle jet is far too small. Specs I have call for a 40 idle jet in the 34 mm and a 45 in the 36 mm. I am running a 40 idle jet on a 36 mm Mikuni and it seems slightly too small (air screw all the way in) but works fine. Your main may also be slightly small. Specs I have call for a 240 main in a 34 mm Mikuni on an 850. I am running a 280 in a 36mm at about 1000 metres elevation. Good luck!
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cash



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 418
Location: west cumbria

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the modern fuel needs a hotter grade plug such as NGK BP6ES or a Champion N8Y to keep the plugs clean and soot free.

I'm sure the NGK BPR7EIX is a resistive plug and if surpressor caps are used that'll weaken the spark. You should be OK removing the caps with the old Boyer Black Box, not so sure about the Micro and Power boxes.

Cash
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tpeever



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cash wrote:
I find the modern fuel needs a hotter grade plug such as NGK BP6ES or a Champion N8Y to keep the plugs clean and soot free.

I'm sure the NGK BPR7EIX is a resistive plug and if surpressor caps are used that'll weaken the spark. You should be OK removing the caps with the old Boyer Black Box, not so sure about the Micro and Power boxes.

Cash


Aren't you worried that the hotter plug may hole a piston?

The use of resistor plugs, caps and wires also depends on your charging system. It took me a while to figure out why the battery on my Matchless G12 was not charging. I had installed a 3-phase SPARX alternator and solid-state regulator and was running resistor wires AND caps. Not sure why. Battery wouldn't charge. As soon as I got rid of the resistor wire, all was OK. I guess the extra resistance played havoc with the regulator. Also seems to depend on spatial location (ie. how close the regulator is to the spak plug wires). Fun stuff!
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BrianK



Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 376
Location: Boston, MA USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting stuff, about which I've posted questions and my own addled observations in the past.

I find Iridium fine-wire spark plugs BY FAR the best in all my motorcycle applications, including my 73 850 Commando, an 84 BMW airhead, 97 2V Ducati 900, and 06 EFI Harley Deuce, plus my wife's 07 Triumph Bonneville and Harley Nightster.

I have a Sparx 3-phase alternator and a Boyer analog EI on my Norton. I run resistor plugs and resistor (but not 5K) caps. All seems well. I was getting a lot of soot on the plugs a while ago but it was carb related. I think I have that dialed in now....sort of!

But any and all information is good....hope this helps you, and thank you for yours!
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ML



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the individual tips, Its suggested I'm running too small an idle jet, and I'm not happy with the duration of choke on before I get proper idle and acceleration, otherwise it spits and pops.

When the motor is warm enough it pulls really well, but the off idle performance when cold to warming up is where things are suspect. Its possibly the Needle Jet and Needle itself?

I guess the advice on the main if fair enough too...I;m new to Mikunis and can't translate it to Amal experience.

Anyone got a recommendation for a Needle Jet and Needle to suit a stock 850Mk2? (Australia is 90% sea level)

Thanks, this forum is great, much appreciated.

Mick
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ludwig



Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 92
Location: belgium

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"... it idles much lower ..."
How low ?
I'm not so shure that a low idle ( below 1000 rpm ) with an analog Boyer is such a good thing .
the initial advance is very ( too ? ) high : 10 - 12 deg .
Thats why I changed to Pazon .
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cash



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 418
Location: west cumbria

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run a grade hotter plugs in my 850 that has over a tad 9:1 compression, 3S cam, twin 34s etc and is used at times hard. my mate uses N9Y in his bog standard Mk3, never had a problem. My plugs are always clean with no signs at all of heat stress.
I'm sure it's not hot plugs that melt pistons but advanced ignition.

Cash
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Yellow_Cad



Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 148
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My completely stock with points Mk I 850 blackens the plugs with my 34 mm Makuni that has a 220 main jet, 35 idle, 6DH2 needle and 2.5 slide. Only in cold (for California) weather does it start with the choke. Any other time I only kick it over once with the choke, then take the choke off and it over where it starts with no throttle and idles pretty smoothly at 1000 rpm. Idling in a confined space, the exhaust smells a little sooty or gassy to me.
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tpeever



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ML wrote:
Anyone got a recommendation for a Needle Jet and Needle to suit a stock 850Mk2? (Australia is 90% sea level)


needle jet 159 p2, needle 6DH3 for 34 mm Mikuni on 850
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tpeever



Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ML wrote:
I guess the advice on the main if fair enough too...I;m new to Mikunis and can't translate it to Amal experience


Not comparable
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BrianK



Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 376
Location: Boston, MA USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience with buying carbs, even if for a specific application, is they come WAAAYYYY rich. Makes sense - beats the alternative! - but it's up to the owner/operator to dial 'em in.

My experience in this regard with the FCRs is the subject of a different string. Not directly relevant, but perhaps in terms of showing the orders of magnitude of adjustments needed, perhaps of some value.

Good luck! - BrianK
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The Unapproachable Norton Commando

At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.

The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.

It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.

Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.

It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.

The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.